Content Rules: Interview with C.C. Chapman
- Danny Iny
Does content rule?
You bet it does. That much is common knowledge to everyone who lives in the world of online marketing.
But do you know the formula for creating content that rules? The rules behind the content?
C.C. Chapman does, and he wrote a book about it with Ann Handley.
The book’s title?
You guessed it: Content Rules.
I had a lot of fun talking on the phone with C.C. (his nickname as a kid, that’s stuck to present day), and the call was conveniently being recorded.
He shared with me not only why content is important (we already know that), but also how to go about creating it – regardless of the size of your company or your budget.
Without further ado, here’s the interview, 28 minutes for you to enjoy:
Here’s the full transcript:
Danny: Hi C.C., it’s a pleasure to speak with you. I want to thank you for taking the time to do this interview.
C.C.: Yeah, no, it’s great to be here. Thanks for having me!
Danny: For sure. For the benefit of our listeners, C.C. Chapman is an author, blogger, speaker and entrepreneur. He blogs at CC-Chapman.com, is the founder of Digital Dads and is the co-author, with Ann Handley from MarketingProfs of a book called Content Rules. C.C., where did all of this start? How did you get into entrepreneurship and marketing in general?
C.C.: Well it’s funny, because I graduated from Bentley University here outside of Boston, and always had a business streak in me. I went to school mainly for computers, but, Bentley is a business school, so I always had, the business side going on too. And my first experience was, I did theater, for a long, long time, it was my first love. And a friend of mine was making movies, he was going to film school, we were always the actors, and then also, we started a small production company. And the web was just blossoming, it was just happening, and I had to teach myself – you know, we had no money, this was pre-YouTube, so we kind figured out our own marketing and did it ourselves. And I just fell in love with the guerrilla style, and started learning about the best guerrilla marketing tactics. I didn’t know any rules, just went and did what I needed to do. And fast forward, I love the web, fell in love with it, and just spent a lot of time on it, and just, you know, helped people embrace technology, and sort of, figure out, you know, I had this interesting mix where I understood the coding and the programming side, but I also had the business and the practical side. And realized that not a lot of people had both sides of, you know, used both sides of their brain and I could come in and help people do it and just started doing it on my own, and later got to help companies to do it. Ran my own agency for awhile, sold the agency. So I’ve been really, really blessed, you know, and a lot of hard work and a little bit of luck once in awhile, and it’s just all kind of paid off.
Danny: That’s really cool. Something that I sometimes wonder, and in speaking to some of our audience members I’ve heard them voice the same kind of question… you see people who are as busy, just super-busy, as you are. You know you’ve got your blogging, you’ve got your Digital Dads company, you’ve got your book, you’ve got, just, tons of stuff going on – How does your time get allocated? Where does the time go?
C.C.: Well it’s difficult, I mean, it’s a constant struggle, but I think it helps too, that I’ve worked from home for five years now, so that takes a lot of discipline, and you kind of have to plan your day out. And honestly, I try to every morning, try to figure out what are the tasks that have to happen every day, and allocate my time that way. And, the other side of the coin too is that I’m a very dedicated father and love and value my time with the family, and time away from doing work, so I try to always make time for doing all of that. It’s a lot of planning, it’s also a lot of – I don’t sleep a lot, I’m a night owl, so I’m up late doing stuff, and that’s sometimes when I’m the most productive. But I guess they key is figuring out what has to be done, not overburdening yourself, I mean I do try to turn away a lot of things because I’m just, you know, I just, I don’t have the time, and there’s nothing worse than overburdening yourself, and then being so far behind, and we all have those moments and deadlines, but I try to keep a nice healthy balance, otherwise I’d go insane.
Danny: That’s a huge challenge, though, I mean, keeping that balance. I find that, you know there’s a quote from Leonardo Da Vinci that I really like, that really stuck with me years ago, he says that: “When Fortune approaches, grab her firmly by the forelock, because I swear she’s bald in the back.” And I think the idea behind that is that, you know, when an opportunity comes, you jump on it, because you only get the one chance. How do you square that with the reality that, you know, you can’t take on too much, and if you do over commit yourself nothing gets done properly?
C.C.: Well, I think, I’ll give you a new quote, Derek Sivers, who is now an author too, but you know, I’ve been a friend of Derek’s for a long time, he wrote a book called CD Baby, he created it. And he’s always had a great outlook on life, and I try to follow one of his topics he wrote about called the “Hell Yeah” approach, which is, if an opportunity comes to me, if I don’t go, “Oh Hell Yeah, I want that!” I say no. Or I pass on it. Now granted, sometimes you can’t – you know, you need money, you need to make a living – there’s other factors, but when it’s something that you purely have the choice of saying “yes” or “no” to, if I can’t say: “Hell Yes” to it, then I try not to say “yes” at all, because there are so many other opportunities out there, and it’s one of those philosophies that I think people need to think about is that you do only have so many hours a day, and once you get past the, you know, making a living, taking care of your family – those kinds of things you have to do, once you get past those, everything else, adding on too many things that you dread doing, or your doing just because of the opportunity… once you start getting certain number of those, you kind of have to soldier them out, and that’s the way I’ve been approaching it lately, it’s been working great. It’s hard, because saying no is the hardest thing in the world, it’s so much easier to say yes, but it’s dangerous too, because you say yes too much, it hurts you, in a big, big way.
Danny: You now there’s… I think it’s the beginning of Enchantment, Guy Kawasaki’s new book, he’s got a quote there, I don’t know who it’s from, he says that “the big challenge with books is that it takes so much less time and energy to buy one then it does to read one.”
C.C.: Yes, very true.
Danny: So it’s the same thing with projects and opportunities, right? Saying “yes” is easy, but then that commits you to like, to you know days, weeks, months, sometimes years of stuff that you’ve got to get done. And that’s yeah, it’s a huge challenge.
C.C.: Yeah, it’s difficult, I look at, I was just, I just had breakfast with a friend a couple of days ago and, you know, were, were discussing how, we both got really busy Septembers because we both do a lot of speaking, you know, and we said yes to these different commitments, but now it’s like, “Oh man, we’re going to be on the road a whole bunch”, you know in the coming months, and it’s that kind of thing where you know, it’s not dread, because I enjoy public speaking, but at the same time, it’s like “Whoa, did I stretch myself too thin, have I been saying yes too much?” It’s a constant struggle, and I don’t think anybody, you know I don’t think anybody totally masters it; you just kind of tame it for a little while.
Danny: So how does that work for you, for example if you’re going to be on the road a lot, and you’re, like I mean you’re functionally a stay at home dad, right?
Danny: That’s not exactly the same thing as being a dad who works from home, but it’s very similar.
C.C.: Yes, well, it’s funny, I mean there are a couple of things that make that possible. I try not to be gone any longer than I need to be, I mean, I don’t know how people do it where they go from city to city to city, are gone for two weeks at a time – I could never do that. It also helps that my kids are a little bit older, I mean my kids are in middle school now, so they’re older, you know, If they get home from school and need to be alone for an hour there’s not a big deal because our neighbors all have kids, and they’re around, and whatnot, and my wife does work full time, so, it’s one of those things where we just, we figured out the balance and we’re really… my wife and I, God bless her, she’s a saint and we have a very open communication, so we talk about everything, so if there’s times when it’s getting sketchy, and actually I’ve pulled back on things at work if things get too stressful. We’ve made it work, and it’s never easy because, while I love traveling, I’m a total homebody too, I love nothing better than just sitting curled up on the couch with my wife or spending time with my kids, so, it’s a constant battle.
Danny: Ok. C.C., I have a question for you about the whole, stay at home dad, being with your family aspect.
Danny: It’s something that, as someone that, like, I do work from home myself, and not just because I love the commute, I, it’s a lifestyle that works for me.
Danny: And at the same time, you know, it raises a lot of questions, and I read, I think this was on Penelope Trunk’s blog, probably a couple of years ago, and she was saying how her argument was basically that guys don’t do well as stay at home dads, with very few exceptions. And she says that in most cases, people who are stay at home dads, or I should say: quote, unquote stay at home dads. They’re actually either, you know, she says kind of lost, they’re figuring out what to do with themselves, they’re not in a good place, or they’ve got like half a dozen projects on the go, in which case they’re not really stay at home dads, they’re dads with flexible schedules. What do you think about that?
C.C.: Well, I’ve never classified myself as a stay at home dad, ever, I don’t see myself that way, so I guess I kind of agree with her, because I’ve never told anybody I’m a home dad, I just happen to work out of the house. I mean, my kids are gone all day at school, so they’re not at home, my office just happens to be in my house. So I think she’s right. I mean, I work for myself, and I do have plenty of projects, sometimes too many, but you know, being a stay at home Dad, if you’re a true stay at home dad, you know, you’re a stay at home dad. Your kids are first and foremost and, I think most stay at homes dads, and stay at home moms too are for the most part when the kids are younger, when they need that constant attention. So yeah, I don’t classify myself as a stay at home dad. I know plenty of stay at home dad’s and they’re awesome, but I’m, I don’t see myself as one.
Danny: So what is a Digital Dad?
C.C.: A Digital Dad, well, a Digital Dad… it’s funny, it’s just one of those names that I was starting a website, I wanted to start a website where I could focus my energy on being a dad and I found it and bought it and really wanted it, and I think Digital Dads, the website focuses on the fact that there’s more to being a dad then just the parenting side, you are a guy first. You now, we still like sports, we like cooking, or movies, all these other things besides just the fact that we love being a dad, and that’s one of the things, that’s what we focused on in the website and always focused on the fact that, you know, I think that going back, back even twenty or thirty years ago, dads were out, for the most part, out in the workforce, right? That’s what they were doing, they were working first and foremost and they came home and were dads. Digital Dads today, you know, we’re doing different things, we’re actively involved in our families, but we’re also working hard to bring money home, we’re connected in ways that we were never able to do. You know technology allows us to stay connected, with technology, you know our kids are more technical then we ever were before too, so it’s a lot of things.
Danny: Well, a lot of the people in our audience are parents, how would they… and a lot of them are men also, a certain proportion are men and parents, they’re dads… how would someone know if Digital Dads was a good fit for them? Tell me a little bit more about what you guys do and what is there?
C.C.: Oh, if you’re a guy, parent or otherwise, if you’re a guy, DigitalDads.com is for you, I mean, it is. You know, every Thursday right now because it’s football season, we have a big NFL thing. Saturday mornings are cooking. On Fridays we have video highlights. On Mondays we used to have Digital Dads TV which is going on a hiatus, but, we focus on, you know, our tag line is: Where a dad can be a guy. There’s very little, it’s funny, because there’s very little parenting writing going on in digital dads. Someone called us the “man cave of the internet”, which I think is way too big a praise, because there are other sites that do that better, but it’s really a place where you know, men and women come, because we have a large number of women readers too, but it’s focusing on, on the things that you know, all of our writers write about things that, things that they like doing, so, you know we have someone who writes about fashion, and talk about sex or business or this morning I wrote about Apple Camp, I sent my daughter to Apple Camp, which I think is kind of interesting on multiple levels as a marketer and as a parent. So, I think anybody can, check it out! And we have so much different content, you never know what you’re going to get.
Danny: Well, everyone, you heard him – got to go check it out! So let’s talk about Content Rules, because, well actually I’ll share. We connected just a few weeks ago by email about something unrelated, and I was like, hey, you know, let’s do this interview and, and you agreed to do it. And then I realized that, you know, oh, crap, a book that’s been sitting on my To-Read list for the last six months – I’ve got to read it!
Danny: And I’ve been reading it non-stop for the last week and I’m, you know, almost done, and it’s fantastic! I’m a fast reader, I can usually get through things pretty quickly, and yours is the kind of book that you really can’t read… you can’t speed through it, because you want to read a section and then take notes about what you’re going to do. It’s all about…
C.C.: I love hearing that.
Danny: All of these action steps!
C.C.: Love hearing that. Absolutely love hearing that.
Danny: So, where did this come from? Because there’s tons of research in there and tons of ideas…
C.C.: Yeah, so Ann Handley from Marketing Profs, my co-author called me up and said: “C.C., I want to write this book, I want you to write it with me, what do you think?” And it’s funny, my first reaction was: “Does the world really need this book? Do people really need to be convinced that content has to be part of their marketing no matter what they do?” and it’s funny because that kind of, that mantra kept coming up the whole time we were writing the book, we kept saying: “Do people really need this book?” And you know, nine months after publishing it, we realized, yes, people do. We had no idea, and yes, there was a lot of research, we kind of broke down what we wanted to do and we attacked it, we really… one of the biggest thing we wanted to do was we wanted to make sure that not only was it a book that we hoped would inspire people, would get them excited about: “Oh wow!” I hate those books that get you so excited, and you get done with them and you go “Well now what? What do I do now?” So we really wanted to make sure that we wrote a book that inspired people but that also gave them some insights and “here’s what you can do.” And rather than us just saying you could do this, you could do that we wanted to make sure that we pulled in a variety of different companies from every budget, every size, every industry, to say “look, here’s how they’re doing it”, that way, because one of the things, I think, no matter what you’re in, I think in the book, you’re going to find at least one example, probably a lot more, but at least one where you go: “Oh wow! I could do that.” And like, going to the case studies at the end, we made a very big point that, you know, we call them success stories, because case studies can be boring, we actually have a bulleted list for every one of them that we label: “Ideas You Can Steal.” Because we want people to take this and go, “look, you can do this too!” So hearing it, hearing you say things like, “I had to stop and I want to take notes.” That’s perfect, because that’s what we wanted to hear from people because we refused to write a book that was going to be all technology focused, or would be out of date as soon as it was printed. And it’s been really rewarding to talk to people and hearing how they’re using the book and hearing how the examples have helped inspire them – it never gets old to hear that.
Danny: No, I can imagine, and you do it very, very well. My criteria when I’m reading in terms of can I skim or do I need to keep going is: I think to myself, well, if someone asked me, basically, if this is the question that this is the answer to, would I be able to figure this out on the fly? And if the answer is yes, I don’t need to write anything down. I can just move on and trust that when the situation comes up, I’ll work it out myself. And you’ve actually got tons and tons of useful information, where, you know, I want to say: “Okay, there’s this idea, there’s that idea…” and like, you give ideas rather than recipes, so it’s not like I can just photocopy a page, and you know, go put it into practice, I’ve got to then say: “Okay, well how am I going to customize this to my niche and to my audience,” so it’s actually a lot of work coming out of the book. So I guess, I mean, to the listeners of this interview: if you don’t like homework then the book isn’t for you, but if you like results, the book is for you, so figure it out.
C.C.: I like that! I like that one a lot!
Danny: So, like, I’m trying to think how to formulate this question, but… let’s assume that most of the people who are listening to this haven’t read the book yet, and let’s further assume that this is a great interview and they will eventually read it. We want this interview to be useful to them between now and when they do read it.
Danny: So they have not read it yet, and they’re hearing about content. And, by the way, I love the double entendre in the title right, you know? The rules of content and how content rules, but when you say content, people usually think writing.
Danny: So let’s say I’m the guy who is running a business, I’ve got 0 to 10 employees, I’m either the owner or the entrepreneur, you know, this is what I do. I don’t know if I have time to write, and, even if I do, I don’t know if I can write.
Danny: So what do I do? Is content just out for me?
C.C.: No, not at all. And I don’t think that if people are thinking that content is just writing, they need to really open up their brains. I mean the way we define content in the book is it’s anything you create and share to tell your story, and so that could be writing, it could be photography, it could be videos, email newsletters, it could be a lot of different things. But it is anything you create. I’ll tell you, some of the best examples of content are the small, 0 to 10 employees businesses, because, you know your business better than anybody, you’ve got that unique voice, you don’t have the… trust me, bigger companies may have bigger budgets, but they also have legal departments and red tape and hoops to jump through. So no, I think it’s one of those things you can start tomorrow, for sure. Even if you’re not a writer. If you say you don’t have the time, that’s a poor excuse, because, I would argue, if you don’t have the time to market your business, you’ve got issues. And I would say that most people listening live and breathe their business, so they will find the time, if there’s a value in it. I think you need to realize that there is value in content because if you’re going to be online in any capacity, and in today’s world you do have to be online in some capacity, you’ve got to create content that’s going to break out, and get people’s attention, show up in search results, all that stuff. You know, it could be something as simple as, if you don’t have the time or the skills, you can bring in a freelancer, or bring in… you know, we call them brand journalists, but, you know, bring in somebody who is good at writing, and you know, create ten pieces of writing that you can push out over the next several months, I mean there’s lots of ways you can do it. There are plenty of freelance writers out there who will work with you for some writing. Freelance photographers, videographers. Bring them in, interview them, interview the staff, you know, interview your customers to say why they love your product or service. There are so many things that can be done, on so many different channels. And don’t think it’s just writing, don’t think it’s just setting up a blog and Facebook and Twitter because it’s not. You can set up all of those things, but if you’re not sharing stuff that actually matters and engages with customers, nobody’s going to care. If you’re a restaurant and all you do is tweet out the special every day – is that a good idea? Yeah, it’s a great idea, but if that’s the only thing you’re doing? That’s not enough. And I think it’s one of our rules is: embrace that you’re a publisher, and it’s really a mindset that you need to get into that you are going to be sharing stuff, and sharing your business and your story on an ongoing, long-term basis. Content is not a short-term play, it’s not a get rich quick scheme, it takes time and effort to really get there, so, you have to tell it as it is. I wish I could sugar coat it, and tell you there’s a magic formula, but there’s not. It’s different for every single – and I do a lot of consulting for companies of all sizes, and it’s difficult, it takes time, and everyone I talk to is a little bit different, so, don’t be scared of it – take your time.
Danny: I completely agree with you when you say that, you know, “I don’t have time” is a poor excuse. My partner Peter likes to say that “if you don’t have time for marketing, pretty soon you’ll have lots of time for marketing.”
C.C.: Haha, very true!
Danny: But, so, you know, you’ve definitely got to make the time. And I think you said something really important, that if you’re not a writer, if content creation is not your expertise, then get someone that it is. So maybe you could talk through a little bit, how would someone go about doing that? Let’s say I acknowledge that, you know what, content is important, I’m on board with inbound marketing, I recognize that it’s not going to have returns right away, but I’m not in business for the next three weeks, I’m in business for the extended period of time, I want to create a business that is smart and sustainable, and I can’t do this myself, I don’t have the – I have a certain amount of time, but my skills are not suited to being able to produce good content within that timeframe. Who should I get, where should I find them, how does that work? Should I go on like, eLance, and find someone who will write me, you know, fifty articles for ten bucks each?
C.C.: Well, I mean, it’s a slippery slope here, because, well, you you post a job opening, just like, you know you’re hiring someone to help you do another task, you’re hiring someone to help you. Now, could you hire someone just to write you ten articles on your industry and have they, and publish them? Yeah, you could. And that might work depending on your industry, but at the same time, it’s more than that because to really be effective, you want to, you want this person to, whoever you bring on board, to really have your voice and to really understand your customer. And just saying “hey, I’ll pay you ten bucks to write an article” is not going to capture that at all. I mean, they might get you some good, temporary, SEO results, get you on the radar, get you started, but the long term, you’ve got to start thinking about: “Well, what if my customers talk back to me?” Well, you know good or bad, what am I going to say to them, how am I going to say that. You’ve really got to, the person you’re going to hire, think of them as a journalist almost, they’re going to come in, spend time with your company, get to know you, get to know your voice, and, you know, be able to write on your behalf. I’m not a big fan of ghostwriting, at all. Not a big fan of that at all. Basically, you know what I mean, having someone write and then slapping the CEO’s name on it as being the writer. I’m not a big fan of that; I know it happens all the time. But, you want to bring somebody in who’s going to really work with you as part of the team. It can’t just be off on a silo where you say: “Hey, go make some content magic happen for me.” It doesn’t work that way.
Danny: So how can you do that in a cost effective way? Because, let’s say I’m a small business and I’m, you know, I’m willing to put some time into this, I’m willing to even put some money into this, but I don’t have, like, I can’t afford to hire a full time staffer to do this. What are some of the options that are available to me?
C.C.: Yeah, I mean, you could bring somebody in, you know, short term, a couple of hours a month, even just to get you started, or spend you know, a few grand. It depends, I mean on quality and all of that of course, but spend some money. It is going to cost some money, unless you’re doing it internally, it is going to cost money. I mean, yeah, you could probably get an intern and help you do something, or a Journalism major, or an English major who’s good at writing if that’s what you’re looking for, or a film student. I mean, there’s ways to get interns in to have them help you, but that only goes so far. To do this right, if you’re not going to do it internally yourself – you are going to have to pay money, plain and simple. But, it doesn’t have to cost you a lot. You know, bring somebody in, bring somebody in and you know, do a series of Lunch’n’Learns so your team does learn how to do this stuff. Or hire somebody to come in and to create some video pieces for you to get started, just like you budget for you know, print ads or radio ads, or anything else you do, you know, it costs money. There’s nothing to say either – you know what, especially you’re a small business, maybe you could work out some kind of barter agreement with somebody, I know I’ve done that with companies before, and there’s always ways you can get creative with business. Maybe there’s something you could do to help them. Never be afraid! Small business owners are some of the most creative people I know as far as making things work on small budgets, so, there’s a million ways you can make this work, you know, find a local college. If you’re really strapped, find a local, you know, there are plenty of people out of work right now, there’s plenty of people you can find who will be more than willing to help you, you know, for less than they might have in the past. And there’s lots of creative ways to do it.
Danny: Okay. We’re getting close to the half hour and I want to be respectful of your time. Whenever we do an interview, there’s a question I try to end with.
Danny: And that is that, you know, we’ve just done this interview, people have spent half an hour listening to everything that you have to say, and you know, you’ve been spectacular, you’ve been persuasive, and they’re like “Okay, yes. Content rules! I have to do something about this. I have to integrate content into my marketing plan, into my business strategy. And you know how impressed I am with this? I’m so impressed that I’m going to clear my afternoon. I’m clearing three hours this afternoon to get the ball rolling.” And the question that I ask is what should they do with those three hours? Now the first 15 minutes they’re going to go to Amazon and buy your book, but then they’ve got 2 hours and 45 minutes. What should they do with that time?
C.C.: The very first thing you should do is I would advise you to go look at what your competition is doing. See what they’re doing in this space, if anything at all. And if your competition isn’t doing something, look at your industry as a bigger, larger… spend the time seeing what other people are doing and engaging. And if you find nothing, in the first half hour, if you’re finding nothing from your competitors or your industry as a whole, then you’ve got tons of opportunity. But if you’re not finding it there, branch out, and then you know what you do? Go look at something that you’re passionate about. Like, I’m a big photographer; I’m a big outdoors guy. Go look at, you know, figure out what your passion is about and go find content that’s out there, and I think you’ll start seeing people look at the different variety of what people are creating, you’ll start seeing, you know, companies who are making videos that you never thought would be doing videos, or maybe people are blogging that you had no idea were doing it. Because everybody is trying to figure this out right now, even those who are doing it really well, doing it long term on an overall basis. It’s difficult. So spend that time researching, seeing what’s out there. And then also, you know, spend the last half hour looking at yourself. One of our rules is to play to your strengths. Figure out: “Okay, I’ve looked at all this really cool stuff.” Budget notwithstanding, forget the budget for a second: “What kind of stuff would I enjoy creating?” Because at the end of the day, you know, you’re going to have to create some of this yourself – you can’t just outsource it all, because nobody has the budget to outsource everything. Figure out what you enjoy doing – do you enjoy photography? Do you enjoy – are you comfortable having a conversation, you know, maybe Twitter is good for you? Do you like taking pictures? Me, I hate video editing. I love making videos, but I hate video editing, that’s why I don’t do a lot of videos. But I can take a picture like there’s nobody’s business. I love doing it. So spend that last half hour figuring out what it is that you enjoy doing, and what are some things that you could start creating content. Just brainstorming a list – don’t worry about budget for now, just figure out: “If I could create anything, what sort of stuff would I start creating?” And go from there. That’s a great last question by the way. I love that.
Danny: Thank you! I’m glad to hear that. And I’m really glad to hear your answer, because that’s just fantastic advice. I mean, I think all of our listeners are going to get a lot out of doing that for 2 hours and 45 minutes, and they really should spend the first 15 minutes buying the book. And, everyone who’s here long term, you know that we don’t use affiliate links or anything when we’re promoting books. It’s not an affiliate link, there’s nothing in it for us, but it’s a great book, so go buy it, if you want a road map to an inbound marketing, content marketing plan. On that note, I want to wrap up. C.C., I want to thank you very, very much for taking the time to do this, it’s been fantastic and a lot of fun for me. I was actually feeling pretty tired earlier and I feel all energized now, which is great.
C.C.: I love that, I love doing that to people!
Danny: Well, thank you! So yeah, thank you very much and I want to wish you tons of success with the book, with your business, with Digital Dads, with your blog, with everything that you’ve got going on, and I really do encourage our readers and our listeners to not just buy the book, but check out your whole, you know, digital footprint, because there’s a lot of really interesting stuff there.
C.C.: Thank you very much! And thanks, thanks for having me, I love doing stuff like this, it was a lot of fun.
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