Course Lab – Episode #101
Unlocking an Integrative Course Approach (Kevin Russell)
Kevin Rusell: We’ve tried almost all of it. We’ve done like the choose your own adventure online video concierge on the website. We’ve done course funnels. We’ve done seven-day challenges, five-day challenges, monthly challenges, all with varying degrees of success. And so what I’m finding is, for us personally, it’s much more of creating almost like a mall as opposed to a superstore.
Ari Iny: Hello and welcome to Course Lab, the show that teaches creators like you how to make better online courses. I’m Ari Iny, the Director of Growth at Mirasee, and I’m here with my co-host, Abe Crystal, the co-founder of Ruzuku.
Abe Crystal: Hey there, Ari.
Ari: Today, we welcome Kevin Russell to the show. He’s a trailblazing transformation guide, energy worker, and quantum consciousness coach with over 20 years in the natural healing arts. He helps people break through their blocks to tap into their highest selves, leading to better health, sharper intuition, and more peace, fulfillment, freedom, and joy in life. Kevin runs radical enlightenment together with his wife, Kelly. Thank you for being here, Kevin.
Kevin: Thanks so much, Ari.It’s a pleasure. Thanks for having me.
Ari: So to kick things off, the question I like to ask people is like, could you give us a 30,000-foot view of yourself and how you came to the world of online courses?
Kevin: Ooh, I love that question. That’s a good one. All right. And this is a personal challenge for me because I tend to extrapolate and meander. So I appreciate the prompt. 30,000-foot view. I was happy in my design career. My opinion at the time, I was fulfilled. I’d been in for about 15 years, 20 years, and making my own hours working with the clients I really wanted to work with. And my wife and I are scratching this itch of our personal growth as well. We ran into some things. We had some big reflections that are very intimate to us, that the way things were going weren’t working.
So we dove deep, worked on myself pretty much daily for about four years and wasn’t looking for it, and ended up late 2019 having a big breakthrough, which was described. I call it a reconnection. But the practitioner I was working with said, you just reconnected with your higher self. The voice in my head changed what I heard in my own thought voice is, oh, my gosh, I’m so glad you made it. We’re going to have so much fun together.
Ari: Wow.
Kevin: I was like, okay, that’s new and interesting. That hasn’t happened before. And then some fits and starts with kind of reconciling this new state of being. And then about two weeks later, between Thanksgiving and Christmas that year, I wrote a book on basically all of it, a handbook on how to follow this journey for yourself, because everybody’s journey is going to be different. It’s going to be hyper personal.
But what I was able to do is match the skills I was honing in my design career with taking business requirements or project specs for an app, a website, a touchscreen, an interactive experience, and translating that into a functional, successful digital product. I just started doing that with humans. So I really boiled it down to our essence as far as what are the universals that we can all utilize in our lives and move forward with more ease, more grace, more space, more enjoyment, more peace. And that was kind of what launched everything that we’re doing now.
Ari: Awesome. And so how do online courses fit into it? So, now, is that the main modality that you’re working with people in?
Kevin: It’s a little bit of a yes. And so it’s funny. And we’ve had reflected that from some coaches and, you know, some other people that spent more time in the space than us just looking for some signposts. And what was reflected in a few different places was, oh, you guys did it backwards. You guys created all this stuff, and then now you’re going out and kind of engaging. So, in that regard, the book, the prescription in the book is really the four radicals, and that’s where radical enlightenment comes from. And it’s radical honesty, radical empathy, radical acceptance. And then all of those practices lead to radical freedom. And our courses are based off of that.
So, what I would say from my own experience is, you know, one, we got to teach what we know if we don’t know it, if we haven’t experienced it, if we’re not familiar with it, like the back of our hand, it’s going to be more challenging to be able to make it applicable for everyone, because, again, we’re all hyper unique. And so that was really the early gestation of taking that nucleus that was created in the book and then creating courses of how to integrate these steps into life, both in an individual level and then also through relationships. And so a lot of the same core material, but one was more guided towards intrapersonal transformation and reconciliation, and the other is interpersonal.
So, how do we evolve and also maintain relationships with those that we love? Or how do we evolve and separate ourselves from entanglements that don’t serve us, that are only keeping us in those old patterns? And from there, that’s where we kind of evolved into how are we executing this product, this course? At first, we kind of followed the model of record, the weekly stuff, put it up, automate, set it and forget it. And this is where I think it really does come down to a personal assessment on a course creator standpoint.
Time is money. So the more evergreen things can be made, obviously, the more freedom we have. But if we’re in a place where the evergreen isn’t quite hitting the mark, then something else needs to be added to the equation. And so for the work that we do, it’s not necessarily a professional how to or a social media course. It’s a little bit deeper, and it’s very much more intimate. And so we started pivoting to when we were doing the meetups, those were live, and those were actually doing processes, stress transformation, belief, re patterning, emotional release processes with the students in the course that then go and take that into the practice for the week.
And then the recordings were basically just the course material that weren’t the dedicated kind of personal focus. That was the support, that was the reference, that was the barometer we can always go back to. But then we started integrating actual processes into the experience into the course. And that’s where, for us, things started really getting the results that we knew that we could help people with.
Ari: So something I’m curious about is what showed up for you that kind of made it clear that it wasn’t hitting the mark when it was just evergreen.
Kevin: Yeah. Reflections. We had some people in the courses where during the evergreen phase, especially in the relationship side of things, if both partners and this can be any type of relationship, it can be intimate, it can be sibling. We’ve had siblings. We’ve had romantic partners. We’ve had parent child relationships join us for the course. So it is really universal. Two relationships. It doesn’t have to be a romantic one. But what we were finding with just the evergreen is people weren’t necessarily getting through their blocks or getting through their blinders.
And we found that we were starting to have very similar conversations in week one as we were in week four, where by that time, you know, people should be well and far, at least aware of the negative looping thoughts, at least aware of the reactions that we have. And what we were finding is without that additional layer of intervention, we’re not necessarily moving the needle because of how powerful the subconscious is. And so that’s where we started to pivot and bring in the other skills and tools and processes, we use with one-on-one clients into the courses.
And that’s where we started really seeing people having breakthroughs, people, you know, really kind of embracing the process and the recommendations for how to integrate this into life, as opposed to sometimes we take a course and it sounds like a good idea, and then there’s no necessarily kind of one on one or in person or live event, and so it just becomes another course in our inbox that we don’t get to. So accountability was one side. Making sure we’re guiding the process all the way through is another aspect of it.
Ari: And so just to clarify, the kind of support that you were giving, because you were saying you brought in elements from one on one, it sounds like, first of all, you were saying meetup. Was that all online?
Kevin: Exactly. Yeah. So everything was remote. The evergreen courses were accessible online, and then the meetup was also Zoom, just because we’ve had, I mean, let’s see, South Africa, Sweden, Switzerland, east coast US, Australia. So it really is kind of a broad global spectrum of people we worked with. And so then the challenge became what time locally do we choose? What time and day do we choose? That is kind of that universal. So that’s another aspect, of course creation is you can have the best thing ever, but if we’re not offering it at a time that’s accessible to the audience, then we’re going to run into challenges. So it was moving through all those different layers. Yeah.
Ari: And so when you were working with people live, just to clarify, so you were working with a group and supporting individuals within the group, both for themselves and as a teaching moment for everybody else.
Kevin: Exactly, yeah. So when we get into the subconscious, we’re all on our own individual journey, but we can all be on our own individual journeys together in the same room. It’s an individual transformation in a group setting. So let’s look at a radical empathy. So that would be week two in the course. The stress transformation could be around any time that we were not afforded acceptance, that we were not able to feel like we belonged, and also times that we were harsh to other people. And so this is an internal stress and trauma transformation process that’s guided and we guide it live with everybody on Zoom. And so not everybody’s going to be having the same stressors around, either experiencing or not experiencing empathy, acceptance, care, love.
Ari: And you work with everybody who’s on that call, or you work with two people and then everyone else learns from it. You work with everybody and everyone else is learning from whoever is currently going through the process. But everyone gets to get the direct support.
Kevin: Yeah. So it’s direct support. Everybody is part of the process. So it’s very much an integrated practice that we’re all doing together. And then the learning really comes after we come out of the process, after the process is complete, and anybody who’s open to sharing the insights, the things they move through, surprises, did this work for them? Did you find it challenging? Then we kind of workshop and unpack it after the fact once we’ve had the experience.
And I look at that as kind of like going to the batting cages. It’s hard to communicate an experience if we’re standing outside the cage and we’re not taking a swing. If everybody takes a swing at the plate, then we at least get to understand how we react and how we are experiencing it. And then if we see somebody else who’s having a deeper experience or maybe actually getting more hits, then we can say, hey, what were you doing that worked? And so in that way, we’re supporting everybody individually, and we’re individually all supporting each other at the same time with that kind of collaborative aspect of it after the fact.
Ari: So one thing that you mentioned earlier that I want to also clarify, you have people who are in a relationship of some sort, whether romantic or not.
Kevin: Exactly.
Ari: So you’re having them go through this together?
Kevin: Right.
Ari: How does that work? Because usually in courses, it’s one person, and you only need to get buy in from one person doing their own work, their own transformation. Tell me a little bit more about kind of the process when you have two people that you need to support and manage together.
Kevin: Absolutely. And it’s interesting because we do one on one work with couples as well. I’d say the vast majority of the clients we work with one on one, are one on one. And the unfortunate kind of reality that we’ve come to understand is that most times when a couple or an individual within a couple is looking for assistance or looking for some support, it’s not always both at the same time. It’ll be one who’s feeling like something’s not working and the other is usually in resistance and digging in. And that’s where the challenge comes in.
And so there is some extra vetting with the course and making sure people are on the right mindset for the work. And this is something that my wife, Kelly and I, we experienced viscerally, kind of in that building phase when we were figuring ourselves out, our daughter was just picking blemishes and we were putting band aids on her. It looked like she had chicken pox because she was just so incessant with it. And one of our early helpers, our early doctors we worked with, was a western MD who also practiced muscle testing in a form of subconscious intervention, subconscious inquiry.
And it took him seven minutes and maybe one muscle test with our daughter for her to figure out. She gets anxious when mom and dad fight, and that’s when I start picking. And all it took was for her to connect that, and she never did it again because she was still early days. So then the doctor turns to Kelly and says, she’s fine. You two are the ones that need to do the work. And both of us were on board. Both of us were like, yep, I’m recognizing. I’m bringing something to the table that’s not working. You’re recognizing something you’re doing is the same thing. So let’s do this together.
So as long as there’s a couple or, you know, anyone in a relationship, mother, child, sibling, I mean, it can be co-worker. It can really be any relationship. The work is going to be individual, and then the relationship benefits. And so if both people are willing to do the individual work, then when we have couple conversations, it becomes much more easy to communicate when we’re starting to use these tools individually for ourselves. And so even if we’re working one on one with a couple, we’re not always meeting together, because a lot of times that just turns into a bitch fest, and it’s just commiserating what is, you know, this is what they’re doing. This is what they’re doing.
So for focusing on ourselves, it really eliminates a lot of that interpersonal friction and challenge, because we are much more focused on what we are doing or not doing that’s causing or creating the challenges as opposed to pointing the finger. So there’s a vetting process to make sure that the people in the course are in that mindset, at least, or at least open to it, to recognizing, hey, my anger has nothing to do with this other person. Most likely it has something to do with my early childhood, where a lot of the beliefs and thought patterns get locked in.
And so it’s wildly successful for those that are ready, and it can be wildly challenging for those that aren’t. If we’re still externally focused, extrinsically focused on my problems and challenges are outside of me, that’s not a great mindset to enter into this work with.
Ari: Awesome. Abe, do you have anything you want to drill into?
Abe: It sounds like you’ve had a lot of experiences with this format, and it’s different than what a lot of people conceptualize as an online course and how it works. So, just interested to continue to hear more from you about what have you learned working in this format and what are things you can share that might be helpful for other course creators?
Kevin: Yeah. Along this journey, of course creation and kind of online offering, I feel earlier on, a lot of the knowledge we gained was more around what not to do or what didn’t necessarily work for us. And this is more so, like, I’ve always been very confident in the core of the material. I feel like it’s unique. And then the approach that we’ve come at it with, where it’s integrated with actual, you know, quote unquote, doing the work, it really works for me because my whole concept with the work we do is a very holistic approach. So if it’s just a singular offering, it’s like, oh, we’re still missing something.
So it was a lot of workshopping, it was a lot of moving things around and configuring things in a way that made sense to me, made sense to us, made sense to our test groups. And then I think probably the second biggest factor was not getting frustrated in that process and recognizing that we might not hit it out of the park right away with the first course. And all of a sudden, with a little bit of marketing, the floodgates open and the money comes in. So not being afraid to make mistakes, not being afraid to do things differently, I think that was another big factor. A lot of what we were hearing for years was, you have to niche down, you have to niche down. You have to get hyper specific, hyper focused with a, you know, a targeted sub sector of an audience.
And I was always somewhat resistant to that because in my mind, I’m like, this is available to anybody. It doesn’t need to be single moms over 40, with teenagers. It’s literally universally applicable. But then what I’m recognizing is it’s a yes. And because it is universally applicable, if it’s the right person at the right place and the right time, much like anything else, you know, relationships, if it’s not the right person and it’s the right place, it’s not going to work. If it’s the right place in time, but not the right person, it’s not going to work.
So, yeah, staying open, not being afraid to get messy and workshop and really make it yours, even if it goes against maybe what the prevailing wisdom is at the time, if you’re just nothing aligned with that way of doing things, try it all and keep what works is kind of the, kind of the way that we’ve done it. But it has also been, you know, head down kind of doing things instead of reaching out for high ticket coaching and mentorships and things like that. It’s been much more kind of guerrilla gleaning what’s there, getting a lot of information and then synthesizing and distilling it based on our lifestyle, based on the work that we want to do, the level of effort that we want to be coming to the table with for the clients, either at a group setting with online courses or group workshops, or individually with one-on-one clients.
And to that extent, we’re still in that place. We’ve done as far as, like, onboarding, which is kind of the other side. Like we’ve got the course, and then how do we get people into the course? We’ve tried almost all of it. We’ve done like the choose your own adventure online video concierge on the website. We’ve done course funnels, we’ve done seven-day challenges, five-day challenges, monthly challenges, all with varying degrees of success. And so what I’m finding is, for us personally, it’s much more of creating almost like a mall as opposed to a superstore, where within the mall you can take a workshop, you can take just the a la carte, static online course if you want, which is much more self-directed.
You can take all of the free offerings, daily balances, and it’s just keeping those touch points active, continuing to make the offer with almost that foundational bedrock of what is now quantum consciousness training academy. As always, an availability of the bigger store in the mall if you’re ready to step into it.
Abe: A lot of what we talk about with courses is applicable to courses that are more nuts and bolts. I guess you could say that we have some concrete outcomes that we’re trying to guide you to by defining certain skills, teaching you those skills and helping you apply them in practice. With the type of work that you’re doing is different than that. It sounds like there’s some overlap, but it’s different as well. So I guess just wondering, what have you learned in that aspect for other people that are looking to teach in the areas of personal development or things that can’t be brought down to the level of, hey, we’re going to teach you how to make your business more profitable, or we’re going to teach you how to run a high converting social media ad.
Kevin: Right? Yeah.
Abe: What can people be thinking about in terms of how to create a course that is engaging and effective for this type of work, but also to help people get results more sustainably over time. Like, that’s the other common challenge we see with courses is that they may have initial engagement but not lead to sustainable results.
Kevin: Yeah.
Abe: So just curious if you have thoughts on those aspects.
Kevin: Absolutely. And a lot of those conversations and explorations for us really led us to the current configuration that we’re working with. And so I’d say for practitioners in the holistic space and the healer space, and I mean, even in the more practical, like, you know, how do I grow social media to 100,000 followers? How do I get to $100,000 month with client engagement? What we do is really just share our piece of the puzzle. And I think whether it’s practical, whether it’s come up in business, and you’ve got that business inside of how you engage, that’s a piece of the puzzle. That’s a business piece of the puzzle. If you are social media focused, that’s another piece.
And the piece that we look at is what can we do to help you with your internal space so that you can go and do and be all those other things that you’ve already probably trained with? Because a lot of times when people come to us, they’ve tried different modalities. They’ve done a lot of courses, like kind of practical science or practical learning approaches, and it’s, I have terrible imposter syndrome, or as soon as I go to post something online, my anxiety, I literally, I’m trying to push that post button and I can’t push it. So that’s where we intervene and help people get underneath.
Why are we having so much challenge with certain aspects of the business or of my personal relationships? Clean things up on the inside so that they can then go and launch more easily with all the rest of the tools that they’re learning and that they’re growing with. So from a takeaway standpoint, our process and approach is very integrative in the sense that we want to integrate conscious awareness, mind training, brain skills with subconscious intervention, transformation, release, and more internal freedom, along with integrated steps that we can take that are we’re not going to change our life, but we’re going to do little things throughout the day that start to turn the battleship, so to speak. Because a lot of times when we make subconscious change, it’s like spinning the wheel on the battleship.
We make a big turn real quick, but then, because it’s such a big ship, it can take some time to follow that correction and that’s where the frustration comes in for a lot of people, where I felt this amazing internal shift, but I’m not quite seeing it in my world yet. And that’s where the action steps, the integrations, the mind practices, the physiological releases, the brain balancing techniques, really come in to extend the benefit of the course. You get clearer on your path. You get clearer with what of those practical steps are your best next step.
And the biggest thing is we’re really getting our whole mind body system working for us instead of being hyper vigilant, trying to keep us safe and alive, which in low grade stress responses that most of us are in most of the time, the system is just there to keep us surviving, not to help us launch. So it’s transforming that relationship. And then, to your point, we’ve done this in a few different permutations. We’ve done an accelerated four-week course. We’ve done a more involved six-week course. And then what we’ve evolved that to now, because of all the trial and error and feedback and insight we’ve gotten over the years, is integrating everything into a longer engagement, where there’s even more one on one attention.
And it’s just our personal evolution with what works for us. You know, the criticism could be, well, it takes a lot of your time. You’re really locked in. And I’m like, yeah, that actually feels really good because it’s kind of the teach a man to fish type of thing. So I’d rather practice fishing with someone on the shore or on a boat for a more extended period so that when they go to fish by themselves, they know exactly where to go and how to do it and how to continue to feed themselves, so to speak.
Ari: And I would assume that with those longer engagements, with that additional support, the cost is also higher for people to engage with you.
Kevin: Yeah, that is kind of the rub. And so it’s one of those where it’s a balance of, we’ve got our course, and then we’ve got a few different ways that we can engage. One of which, right now is a session package, where you get a session package, it’s discounted from the individual one on one session rate, and then we can just keep rolling those over. There’s also a subscription model that we offer post course or post package where you can sign up for a monthly recurring support session. And then that’s another way to kind of keep moving forward.
I mean, for what we accomplish in six months and the shifts that people make, it’s not a break your bank type of investment. And so the extended engagement gives us more space to really unpack, really dive deep into the individual goals and what our focus is. So the focus is what we want to let go of, what we’re done with, what we’re ready to leave behind. And the goals are what do we want to experience more of, what do we want to achieve? And this is universal for our courses and for individual work. And then we’re just kind of magnifying it with this extended engagement, because not only do you get the one on one bi weekly subconscious transformation sessions, you also get full access to all the courses.
We’re actually offering free two-day workshops of getting people up with the knowledge base of how we’re operating, where we’re operating from, giving for free the brain balancing, the breath work, the somatic release, the limbic system settling practices, and then actually guiding processes so people actually get a feel and a sense for what this is, to make sure it’s a good fit. And so we’ve tweaked some things, and we’re just launching this spring with this new approach. It’s kind of the culmination of everything that we’ve created and integrated over the last few years. So, at least for us, that we’re excited about this new offering, this new additional layer of approach.
Ari: Very cool. And so the only offer, so, of course, there’s a two-day free workshop, but you were talking about how the course evolved was a four-week accelerated, then longer, and then now kind of where it is. So you’re no longer offering the previous versions of the course?
Kevin: Definitely still offering, yeah, absolutely. So the online evergreen courses are still available.
Ari: Okay.
Kevin: And then it would be more on demand support if requested. So that would just be, you know, booking 30 minutes, like, hey, week three, I really, I really got resistant, or I got angry at what you were saying, what’s going on there? So we can help unpack in that regard. So it’s still available, but the focus is kind of guiding people more towards the more integrated offerings, whether it’s just a single session, which is still available, the package which is available, and you can always do, you know, a session or a package and then jump into the evergreen.
From what I’ve come to understand from courses, it is a bit of an unorthodox approach, but I always encourage explore. Like, we don’t know what we know until we get that into the I know what I know bucket, and I know what I don’t know is a much bigger bucket. So taking as much from I know what I don’t know into I know what I know, then we can actually make decisions and go with what works for us, even if it’s not something that’s worked for somebody else. So I just encourage anybody that’s looking to create a course really, like, step back, identify your superpowers, what lights you up.
And then we all learn differently. And so what ways can you communicate what you’re doing? Where we’re hitting it on a visual and auditory and a textual level so that we can meet people where they’re at. I don’t think there’s any one wrong or right way. It’s just depending on what type of money, what type of time, and what type of level of effort do we have in any given moment, really looking honestly, at that kind of assessment.
Ari: Awesome. So I do want to quickly ask, Kevin, where can people find you? What’s the best place for people to go to learn more about you and your work?
Kevin: Probably the best place to start would be KevinRussell.guide. It’s really a hub where you can connect to all the spokes that we offer, from our one-on-one work to our courses and our media material, and then to also the training academy opportunity. And then if you’re interested in more information about the two-day mastermind or the course, the best place to find that would be qctacademy.com.
Ari: All right, thank you so much, Kevin. This was great.
Abe: Kevin Russell shows you how to break old patterns, stop arguments, improve communication, and build healthier relationships no matter what’s happening around you. Learn more about his program at qctacademy.com. That’s Q-C-T academy dot com or you can learn more about Kevin at KevinRussell.guide. That’s K-E-V-I-N-R-U-S-S-E-L-L dot guide.
Kevin: Thank you.
Danny Iny: Now stick around for my favorite part of the show, where Abe and Ari will pull out the best takeaways for you to apply to your course.
Abe: All right, time to debrief Kevin’s interview. Really interesting type of work that he does. A little bit different than a lot of courses we look at.
Ari: Absolutely. One thing that jumped out to me, just a really interesting marketing vehicle that he mentioned, is kind of the two-day workshop idea. The, you know, the format is up to the individual course creator, but the idea of really letting people understand and help them understand what you do and experience it to a certain extent, especially when the promise can feel a bit vague, I think is a really interesting path and can really support converting.
And of course, in order to do that, you need the conversion to be worth a good amount. So, you know, if it’s a higher ticket course with more one on one support, that would make more sense than if it’s a $200 course. You don’t want to be giving a ton away for free ahead of that and put a lot of effort into it. I thought that was a really interesting path.
Abe: I think his story illustrates the importance of evolving the course structure in marketing to get closer to what aligns with client needs and what you can market effectively. And that would be different in different contexts. But in his case, it resulted in evolving the program structure essentially to be longer and more in depth over time. And that might not have been immediately obvious that that’s what was needed, but that’s the structure that’s getting his clients better results. And so once you figure that out, then you can think about, okay, what is marketing that’s going to be appropriate for that format.
And so in a way, it seems like the marketing is also evolving to a more in depth and hands on structure that aligns with this new focus for the course. And so the takeaway is not that everyone needs to go on that specific path, but the importance is continuing to look at what’s working, but also, how can the core structure continue to improve and evolve? Like, what you find is working by version three, let’s say, of your offering might be significantly different than what you start with.
Ari: And going into it with that expectation to a certain extent of, you know, what you know today, as you mentioned. But be open to learning, because you will learn a lot.
Abe: Yeah.
Ari: By having people go through your marketing and your programs.
Abe: Just important to keep reiterating that, I think because there is still a tendency to think of a course is sort of like a fixed product that you like, box up and put on the shelf, and it’s really not the right mental model for this. I liked how sort of open-minded Kevin was about developing as his offering over time. He talked about creating a structure that works for people coming in as partners or in some type of personal or family relationship coming into the course, as opposed to assuming that, oh, this is just going to be for one individual, like any typical course would be.
And by having that openness to like, okay, who’s really taking this? And what support do they need? He found ways of serving and supporting people that might not have been, again, obvious when initially conceptualizing this.
Ari: Yeah, that’s a really great point, because I haven’t seen course creators do that. I’ve seen coaches and therapists of course, do that kind of thing, but taking that approach and being open to it is fascinating, and it sounds like it’s working well for him, which is great.
Abe: Any other takeaways you wanted to highlight?
Ari: Nothing else on my list.
Abe: All right, learn more about his program at qctacademy.com. That’s Q-C-T academy dot com or you can learn more about Kevin at KevinRussell.guide. That’s K-E-V-I-N-R-U-S-S-E-L-L dot guide.
Thank you for listening to Course Lab. I’m Abe Crystal, co-founder and CEO of Ruzuku, here with my co-host Ari Iny. Course Lab is part of the Mirasee FM podcast network, which also includes such shows as Once Upon a Business and Making It. If you don’t want to miss the excellent episodes coming up on Course Lab, make sure to follow us on YouTube or wherever you listen to your favorite podcasts. And are you enjoying our show? If so, go ahead and leave us a starred review. It really does make a difference. Thank you, and we’ll see you next time.
All right, Ari, who have we got coming on for the next episode?
Ari: Next time we’re going to have Susan O’Connor. She’s an award-winning game writer who has worked on over 25 projects, including the Tomb Raider franchise and others. She was our first episode for the show, actually, and she’s coming back to share how things have developed for her and her program.
Abe: Oh, that should be fun.
Ari: Yeah, I’m really excited about it.