Teacher Tom’s Podcast – Episode 10
The Power of Play (Kisha Reid)
Kisha Reid: So I create this space that I know is what, the basics of what children need. And I was expecting the children to just jump right into it. But then as time kept going, I was like, well, why aren’t they building like the other kids build? They’re not dragging these materials around, you know, why aren’t they discovery kids?
Teacher Tom Hobson: Hi, it’s Teacher Tom, and welcome to my podcast where we take play seriously. In this episode, I’m talking with the wonderful Kisha Reid. I first met Kisha through the Play Empowers play advocacy group that she founded on Facebook. She’s the founder and director of her own play-based program called Discovery Early Learning center, which she does not call a school, but rather and I love this, a place for childhood. She’s also the host of the Defending the Early Years Podcast.
And overall, she’s one of my favorite people in early childhood education. Usually, when I talk to Kisha, it’s about childhood play, the importance and power of an authentic childhood, and working with entire families, not just the children. But when I reached out to her to ask what she wanted to talk about, she said, learning environments with an emphasis on social and emotional environments. Hi, Kisha. Welcome to the podcast.
Kisha: Hello, Tom. Nice to talk to you. Miss you.
Teacher Tom: Oh, I miss you, too. I wish we lived on the same coast or something so we could see each other more often. I was just thinking, the only time actually we’ve been together was when I came to your place. Gosh, it was a few years ago. And I will say when I got there, my first thought was, this is a childhood paradise. I went back home, and I started trying to imitate things that you did there and everything. And I know you’ve come a long way since then. But I guess let’s just start off talking about how do you look at your learning environments and how do you put them together? How do you think about them because I know some people are going to look at them and think they look like junkyards.
Kisha: Yep. Yes. And I think, like, the foundation work that I had to do prior to, like, just plopping this gigantic junkyard in the middle of a small town was to introduce the idea to the community, really explain the why behind children need to get messy, why we have random loose parts all over the place. And one story that cracks me up, early on, we had a family finally call me, and he said, man, we passed all the time. And my kids kept asking to play there, and I kept telling them, it’s a can’t play there. And then he found out that it was actually a place for childhood.
So that family actually ended up signing up, and they stayed with us for four years until they went to kindergarten. I’ve seen setups at the zoo that remind me of it, and that’s really because young children need to play just like animals need to play. You know, they need to be able to climb things. They need to be able to get dirty. They need to be able to take risks. And what that looks like is not your standard playground set.
And I’ve worked in traditional programs for many, many years where we did have a standard playground set. And I found that children were digging in the mulch, carrying mulch from place to place. They made their own loose parts. And some of those places I worked, every rule went against that natural urge, like, you can’t take off your shoes, don’t climb on the outside of that, only going down the slide. And every rule went against what children are naturally wired to do. So my motivation was creating a space where they could meet those urges.
And it’s tricky. I tried to put myself back into my childhood space, like, when I was young. What did we do? I wasn’t in a childcare program. I was in the wild. So what did we do when we were allowed to do what we wanted? So that was really the catalyst for designing the type of program I did. Not to mention the Internet was a wonderful tool for me because I got to see adventure playgrounds, like, oh, my gosh, there are places that are already doing this work.
So that really helped, and it really helped me to share that information with parents and with the community through photography and documentation for them to really grasp that, oh, that school is not just junkie because they’re a junkie school or they’re a bad school. There’s a lot of research and a lot of science and a lot of human development that goes behind what they’re doing. So it just worked out well.
Teacher Tom: Well, Kisha, you’ve got spare tires and shipping pallets, and you’ve got stuff that can’t even be described on your playground. And inside, too, to be honest. Do people ever feel like their kids are in danger there somehow, or it’s risky, too risky?
Kisha: Well, I think I don’t encounter that because those people don’t sign up. They might come for a tour, and they’re like, oh, my gosh, you know, I would never. And they don’t say that to my face. They just don’t sign up. But I will say that there are probably a handful. One hand in ten years of tours that I’ve given that did not sign up. So I would say it’s not a large issue. And I think the reason is because they come, and I’m confident and I’m clear, and I explain.
By the time they come, they’ve already seen the photos, they’ve seen some of the documentation, they’ve read the handbook, they’ve seen the website. And I think it desensitizes it a little bit because you see, okay, there are children who are playing here and who are doing this, and they look rather happy. They’re still in one piece. There’s a community of people who are interested in this. I think it helps them not be afraid.
Teacher Tom: Right. Now, you say you’re in a small town. Do you draw from outside of your small town, or are these all people that live there in your small town?
Kisha: Well, so, originally, I opened in a small town. And most of the families came from the small town. But I had a family that crossed the river on a boat to come to school every day. I’ve had families that were close enough to walk and ride bikes, and then I’ve had families that drove over from another town. So it was kind of a mix, but largely the children and families came from the town, and that ended up being such a beautiful glue to bring us together as a community.
And I recently moved, opened a second location, and it’s not in the same small town. So I was a little nervous because I know I have something really special, but I wanted to prove to myself that it didn’t take any particular parameters and that anybody can do this anywhere.
Teacher Tom: So tell us about the new place. The second location?
Kisha: Yeah, the second location is much smaller because we ended up growing our first location and moving to a multi classroom facility. There are five classrooms, and it’s very different from the original that you walked into. And the original you walked into was this large room, mixed age, big group of children, lots of adults, very easy access to outside. And over COVID, we ended up moving to a space that would allow us to provide child centered care to more families, but it had some parameters, and again, that was a challenge for me.
I had to challenge myself to, okay, can we do this style of care in a building that was built to be traditional preschool? And although there are differences, for sure, I can say, and I can say it’s proven that, yes, you can have a play based, child centered, open ended, loose parts junkyard in a building that was designed to be a traditional preschool. Now, I have opened another location, and this is an interesting spot. We call our classroom the den. It’s not in a basement, but it’s kind of in a basement.
It’s in a retreat center. Very, very old retreat center. The building was built over 100 years ago, and it’s a huge, beautiful building. And it was always built to be a school. And we are in a little room in the bottom that I call the den, where the kids are hanging out. And again, you can still have a nature based, child centered program in that space. I don’t think it’s the building that matters. We have a courtyard that’s directly off of our playground.
We have access to our own spot in the forest where we have a stream. There’s the creek. There’s so many resources that are at our fingertips that we are taking every bit of advantage of, but I don’t think it takes that either. I have seen programs do the same thing in the middle of a city. So I think sometimes we limit ourselves because of our thinking of what we can’t do instead of challenging ourself to do what we can do and what we know children need to have.
Teacher Tom: Right. Well, you know, I want to go back to you talking about taking inspiration from your own childhood. And we’ve talked about this before because I think in many ways, we had very similar childhoods because I don’t remember a lot of adults hanging around when I was out running around the neighborhood. What are some of the key aspects of that kind of authentic childhood, as you often call it, that you want to make sure is part of your environment?
Kisha: The biggest thing that we need to make sure that the children have is a sense of I can do. A sense of that positive self-image. Like, I am powerful, I’m capable, I’m creative, I can do. Because when you start from there, I mean, the sky’s the limit. When you believe in yourself, the floodgates are open for creativity. The floodgates are open for withstanding challenge and trying again when you fail or make a mistake or having an argument with a friend and working it out.
When you have that positive self-image, you are set to succeed. And that, I think, is the first and foremost. I know that’s not like a physical environment thing, but I think the emotional and mental environment really has to be set first. So the adults have to understand that they have to have that buy in. They need to know the why, and they need to truly believe in it, because the children can feel if you don’t.
Another big important part is the relationship and trust. You got to really know the children in order to trust, and for them to trust the environment and to trust you and for the families to trust you. And that’s a big portion. Like when the families trust and have the buy in, then the children don’t have that mixed message of what they can and can’t do. Those things, I think, set the tone before you even set up an environment.
Teacher Tom: Got it. So that social, emotional environment is a really big piece of this. And I think it is a piece that when we talk about learning environments, we forget about. I think there’s a real tendency to forget. There’s that children knowing they have the permission to explore. I mean, that’s what I think goes back to that authentic type childhood that you and I got to experience, that there was nobody around to tell us what not to do.
Kisha: Yeah. And I had to rewind myself. When I moved to the new location, I got there, and I don’t know why, but I expected the children to come into this space because I’ve been doing this for ten years. So I create this space that I know is what the basics of what children need. And I was expecting the children to just jump right into it. But then as time kept going, I was like, well, why aren’t they building like the other kids build? They’re not dragging these materials around, you know, why aren’t they discovery kids? And then I realized, when you have not experienced that sort of, I can do messages coming to you or when you’ve never been trusted in this way. It’s not instinctual, not if you haven’t experienced it.
So it did take time, and it was very amazing, like a wonderful process to see the children come into that and watch them individually grow this sense of confidence and this sense of balance and this sense of knowing of each other and trust in their body and taking risks and not saying, I can’t do it, and really just trying and not worrying about who’s watching them or asking, can I? Can I? Can I? Just seeing the shift in the children over the first six months once again solidified in me that this is what every child needs.
Teacher Tom: Yeah, I’m sure there’s a piece of it, too, that the children had to start role modeling for one another. Right? There had to be this sort of culture that emerge, and that’s what you talk about your discovery culture all the time. So what does that culture look like? What does it mean? I mean, the confidence, the knowing you can do. What are some other aspects of things that make that kind of a discovery culture?
Kisha: One thing that really is important to me is when they first come into the classroom or the outdoor space or wherever we are, letting them choose their place, their space, who they’re going to play with, if they’re going to engage, not egging them on or having things set up in a way that unconsciously tells them what to do. Just being there. Good morning. Hey. Come on in. Just being there and seeing what happens. We are very connected in that there’s always children on my lap.
The other day, one of my kids just looked at me. I went in the bathroom, came back out, and she just looked at me and goes, Miss Kisha. And I said, what? She said, I love you. And I’m just like, I love you, too. It’s really about being ourselves, and that kind of takes the mask off and lets the guard down. That is the biggest part of the culture, the relationship, and the being authentic, being yourself. And children can feel that. They open up in a different way. They are themselves. There’s no judgment. We’re not judging each other. There’s no measurement. We’re not measuring each other. So there is a guard that comes down.
Teacher Tom: You know, I’m noticing here, and I know this from the past, but I’m noticing as we’re talking, that you never call your place a school. Why is that?
Kisha: Because of what society thinks school is. Part of it is I don’t want to confuse people. Like, I don’t want you coming and signing up here and thinking that your child’s going to sit down and do worksheets all day. I don’t want you coming here and thinking that you’re going to get report cards or anything that looks like what our school system looks like. So to help them not to be confused, I don’t use that word as often.
Then I’ve gone through periods of time where I’m like, well, we are school. We’re what school should look like, you know? And I don’t know where I am right now. I do not call it a school when I’m talking to the children because I don’t believe that young children need school. I don’t. I think they just need to be hanging out and being young children.
Teacher Tom: Well, don’t you call it a place for childhood?
Kisha: It is. It’s a place for childhood.
Teacher Tom: Yeah. See, I love that. So talk about a typical day. Like I’m a three-year-old and I show up at Discovery.
Kisha: Okay.
Teacher Tom: What am I going to spend my day doing? Am I going to spend all day outdoors or all day indoors? What am I going to do?
Kisha: Well, a typical day at Discovery, and I’ll say, there’s so much that happens, I could never put it on a little lesson plan. So as the kids are coming in, I am chilling. I’m either sitting on the couch or sitting on the carpet or in my rocking chair, and they’re coming and I’m saying, good morning. There are a few that come straight over to me and sit on my lap or come over to me and ask me to play blocks with them or come over to me and tell me about their night. And then there are some that go straight and get to playing in the block area.
We have a bye bye window where the kids can go say bye to their parents. So their parents leave and they run over, say bye to them in the window, and they’re off. One little girl goes to our couch that we have in the classroom, and she jumps on the couch for her first three minutes almost every day. She just jumps on the couch. And I said, that girl’s got to bounce. Doesn’t bother her soul. Another one comes right in and wants to know what’s for morning snack. And she sits at the table and she’s ready to eat. So everybody does what they need to do. They start trickling in at 8:00.
By 8:30, some might be building a castle out of magnetiles. Another is drawing something for her brother. Another is cooking up something in the play kitchen. I mean, everyone’s doing their own thing. And that shifts. There’s a game that they’ve all started playing together called shipwreck. And it also depends on who’s there that day. One little girl is the shipwreck girl because she got the idea from her brother. So she comes in and she’s immediately like, all right, let’s play shipwreck. Everybody knows what to do. They all get together, get all their material, start dragging things across the classroom, change the table.
Now it’s not a table, it’s the ship. Lots of conversation about, you’re going to be this, who’s going to be the baby? I’m the mom. Well, there could be two moms and all this dynamic going on. And they’re playing that for a while until somebody says, oh, we need to make a map. And then two kids run over to the table and they start making a map. There’s one little girl who every day she asks for the watercolors because she likes to play with the colorful waters and mixing them up and transporting them with different modes of moving water around. And then maybe another friend will join her, and it just organically happens.
Teacher Tom: And is there a flow, indoor outdoor kind of flow during these times?
Kisha: There has not been yet at this location, and that’s because it’s just freezing cold and they have to get dressed up in, like, 500 layers, so it’s not as easy to just be flowing around. So that’s another thing that I did when I started here. I was so excited to have all this nature. I had this vision that they’d play for a little in the morning, and then we’d all get suited up and we’d hike every day. We’d do these long hikes, and we’d come back and we’d have these yummy hot meals, and then everybody would sleep, you know, all these fantasy things when really that did not happen because hiking long hikes every day for two-, three-, and four-year-olds when they’ve never hiked a day in their life is not realistic.
Now, since then, we have actually done what we’re supposed to do, which is listen to the children and observe the children and watch the children. And we realized that they needed to be at the courtyard playground to get a connection with that space, to get a connection with each other, to get to know each other, to work up the muscles, the balance, the trust in themselves before we could do those random hikes all the time. So we took it back and then allowed their circle to authentically widen. This really helped me to, like, almost start over again and remember those things that we did at the beginning and remind me that it’s really about the children that are in front of you. It’s not one size fits all.
Teacher Tom: Yeah. I love this, what you’re telling me, because you are talking about how the environments impacted you. You had this one environment, you moved to the next one, and it changed who you are, right, in a way. I mean, you had to go back and rebuild yourself as an educator. I’ll never forget when we moved from a small, cramped space with a playground that had a wall around it. And so it really echoed. And I remember I’d be up there with the kids and it’s like I didn’t have to look around. I could hear everything that was going on.
Suddenly we moved to a much more wide-open place, and I felt like I didn’t ever know what was going on because I couldn’t hear anything. I had to keep watching and looking and getting close to things. It just changed who I was as a teacher. So I guess I want to get to the question of about loose parts. You’ve mentioned loose parts. What is loose parts play to you? And why is it so important for young children to experience that kind of authentic play?
Kisha: I think it’s important because it drives creativity. Like, these materials don’t have a right way to use them. They are not attached to anything commercial or capitalistic. They are not attached to any movies or something that you’ve already seen. They support symbolic play that children are developing. It helps them exercise that muscle. A lot of the times, large loose parts require multiple kids to have to transport them. And not only do you have to physically work together, you have to communicate your idea, because if I’m looking at a piece of wood, but in my head, it’s going to be the platform for the ship. I have to communicate that to everyone. Like, that’s what this is going to be.
And then we all have to come to a consensus and agree that is what this is going to be. So it kind of just helps kids practice that social work. So it’s physical, it’s social, it’s cognitive, because you got to imagine and pretend, but then it also allows you to have multiples, right? So you’re practicing with your numbers and different weights and different sizes. And in a way that a toy that has a button or a battery or a face from a cartoon or some exact way that you use it is not going to stretch the mind.
Teacher Tom: Do you have any toys that you have on your playground, like traditional toys or inside?
Kisha: I have a couple trucks that I would consider traditional toys. I can’t think of anything else other than shovel, like tools, but I can’t think of any other toys that we have out there. We have tricycles, if you consider that a toy. We have that, but that’s it.
Teacher Tom: I reflect like you do on my own childhood, I do that all the time. I don’t remember there being a lot of toys, especially outside. Inside, I kind of had some toys, right? But outside, you know, we had wagons.
Kisha: I do remember having my big wheel as a kid, but other than that, I don’t remember having toys outside. Honestly, yes, we do have balls. We got some balls because we have a basketball hoop that the kids like to go to on campus. We spend every Wednesday down at the, I call it the oasis, and it’s a spot in the forest. We have a beautiful stream trickling through. And other days we might walk to upper farm or go to some other part of the property, but on Wednesdays we make sure that we go to the oasis. And now that it’s getting warm, we are going to live in those woods.
But when they first went down, they were terrified. And in my heart, I was like, we’re going to go. They’re going to love it. It was still warm in September. I had all these visions. They were terrified. We’re walking down the pathway, and the trees kind of hang in as you go, and they kind of hug you. And one of the kids said, is this a tree tunnel? Just very scared and asking questions, are there tigers? And things like that? So it really was a matter of them building a relationship in a trust with the environment, with the outdoor environment as well.
So a lot of important stuff was happening. I pat us on the back for stopping getting that adult agenda. Even if the agenda is nature play, it’s still the adult agenda and really honing in to what’s going on with the kids and then answering to that.
Teacher Tom: Yeah, you talked about forest, you talked about stream, you talked about a farm. You know, I can imagine there’s a lot of people listening to this and are feeling a little bit envious and thinking, yeah, that’s all well and good when you have the easy access to those things. What about somebody in an urban environment? You said you’ve seen people do sort of loose parts, play based junkyard stuff. Tell me what that looks like.
Kisha: I’ve seen that. And what that looks like for them is it’s still place based. So if your place is in a city, then you have some stuff I don’t have. You know, you have walking access to some interesting things. A friend of mine who lives in the city, her children walk to museums. They have the public library that’s right next to them. They have access to really cool public parks that have beautiful statues and gardens. And they have access to community helpers that are right at their fingertips, and community in general. Like, they have access to restaurants. And so I don’t think that any of those material things make or break. I don’t think it’s any one specific material or one specific access to something. I think it’s the larger idea that is what matters.
Teacher Tom: Yeah, well, I often think humans are the greatest species for creating garbage. No other species creates as much excess as we do. But what I’ve noticed is that everywhere you go, there are humans, there’s excess, there’s waste. And everywhere you go, that waste, some of that waste, at least, is perfect for children to play with, and it’s what they want to play with because it comes right out of their place, their habitat.
Kisha: I mean, I, as a child, got in trouble for garbage digging. I mean, it’s so disgusting thinking about it now, but people would throw away furniture and stuff, and we’d dig it right out of the big garbage, drag it into the forest, and build things with it. I don’t know where we got these tools from, but we literally used hammers and nails. But you know what’s sad, though? I went back to my old neighborhood, and this is why programs like this are important, because we’ve already said this is what human children crave. It’s what they’re going to do.
And we know that we’re not doing it for no reason. Like, it is a part of humanity. It’s what we need to grow into, who we’re going to be. And what is sad and what’s scary and what really makes me feel like these programs have to continue to multiply is I went back to my old neighborhood, and I was so excited to show my son, like, this is where I grew up. There’s the forest, and just show him all the things and tell him the stories.
And there was a iron gate, I mean, similar to a jail, completely surrounding the neighborhood, which blocked out access to the forest and to the creek. So all of the magic of my childhood was no longer accessible to the children of today. I didn’t see one child, not one child anywhere, playing on the playground. And it’s just really, really sad.
Teacher Tom: Oh, you know, this is just pure speculation on my part, but I feel like that you go around the world now, and you can go entire days if you don’t go out of your way and not see a single child anywhere. Or if you see them, they’re in a car driving by or something like that. And it’s, you know, I think we’re really blessed that we get to spend time with young children. But I think half the world’s problems come from that, from the fact that we’re not there with these creative geniuses who see the world afresh and new and can show us all.
I mean, they belong in all of our spaces. And you and I have talked about this before, how places aren’t designed for children anymore. We put these little satellite places, these ghettos, for them to go to, more or less.
Teacher Tom: So, Kisha, if people have listened to this and they want to find out more about Kisha Reid and what she’s up to, how can people find out more about you?
Kisha: I think right now, the best way to keep up to date to what I’m doing is to check out my website at discoverynaturalearning.com, that’s probably the best way. And from there, you may be able to find Facebook where a lot of the photo documentation is. And, yeah, I’d love to hear from people.
Teacher Tom: Well, and I also just want to point out your group, Play Empowers. That’s how I met you originally, and that’s on Facebook. Play Empowers. It’s an amazing group of educators, and it’s such a welcoming, open group that anybody, even some scruffy guy with a red cape, can join. Every time I talk to you, I can see you’ve transformed something about what you’re doing, what you’re thinking.
To me, you’re an example of what all early childhood educators really are at their best because we are thoughtful people. We’re not just there changing diapers. We are doing the important work of creating the next generation of citizens. And I can think of no better place than discovery as a place for childhood. So thank you, Kiisha.
Kisha: Thank you so much, Tom.
Teacher Tom: What a rich topic. I was recently leaving a store. When I came to the exit door, I saw it had a handle. I grabbed and pulled. The door didn’t budge. I then counterintuitively pushed and the door swung open. This is a prime example of a failure in design. A handle means pull, and a push plate means push. Indeed, every time you see a sign on a door reading push or pull, you’re looking at a design flaw that someone has clumsily attempted to correct. Design flaws are all around us.
My local supermarket began offering discounts to members. But to take advantage, you had to open an app on your phone, then hold the barcode under a scanner, which is located beneath the checkout screen. There’s no beep, no green light, or any other indicator that your code has been read, which means that every single person who uses it winds up fuddling around, trying their phone at different angles, before finally, in frustration, engaging the cashier in this conversation. Did it work? What worked? My app thing. You mean your discount code? Yes. Let me see. Yeah, it worked.
And you thought the paper or plastic question got old. This, too, is a design flaw that a simple beep or bell or light would fix. Every time you see that pedestrians have worn a path through a lawn instead of sticking to the sidewalks, you’re seeing evidence of design not working. My father was a transportation engineer who was fond of pointing out how design flaws were causing the traffic jams we were experiencing. He’d say, I’m sure it looked beautiful on the drafting board, but the engineer forgot to consider how actual people behave.
When I first started teaching, I set up our classroom as I would have, say, a living room, thinking in terms of seating and traffic flow, making sure the passageways were wide enough that there were no places where one could get trapped, and so on. The reality I discovered, once actual children were on the scene, behaving as actual people behave, was that I’d created a racetrack that said, quite clearly, run in circles. And that’s what they did. After weeks of scolding the kids about running inside, I finally rearranged the furniture, and lo and behold, the behavior disappeared.
One of the aspects of the Reggio Emilia model for early childhood education that I think about often is the concept of the three teachers. The first teacher being the adults, the second is the other children, and the third teacher is the environment, which is where design comes in quite often. I found that repeated, troubling or trying behaviors have little to do with the children themselves, and everything to do with an environment that forgot to consider how actual children behave.
Things hanging from above tend to tell children jump or swing or hang. Long open areas say run, echoey spaces say shout, dark and confined spaces say giggle and whisper, bright and busy creates a different vibe than muted and uncluttered. And design considerations are not limited to the physical space as Kisha and I discuss in this podcast. Sometimes the aspect that needs tweaking has to do with the schedule or the expectations, or our relationships, or even the school’s philosophy, all of which I consider to be part of the child’s learning environment as well.
Of course, it’s not always about design, but whenever I find myself forever correcting the same behavior over and over, I begin to suspect that’s what it is. Instead of looking to change the child, I start by wondering, how can I change the environment? It’s amazing how often even a small change, like moving the furniture or expressing myself with different words or a different tone, or replacing a handle with a push plate, can make all the difference in the world.
At the same time. Imagine what happens when your third teacher is a full-on junkyard playground, or a forest or beach or farm. Think about what that design does for how young children learn and play. When you walk into a space like Kisha’s, you find a space full of possibilities, of variables that inspire young children to explore and create, driven by self-motivation. So often our learning environments are directive. Sit in those chairs, face this direction. Remain silent. Answer the questions. Open ended, loose parts environments tell children they are free, that they have permission to follow their curiosity, the most powerful learning tool of all, wherever it leads them.
That’s it for this episode of Teacher Tom’s Podcast. Thanks for playing with me, and a great thank you to Kisha for this inspiring conversation. In the show notes, you’ll find more about her and the link to our website. I’m Tom Hobson, and you’ve listened to Teacher Tom’s Podcast, Taking Play Seriously.
You can find out more about me teachertomsworld.com. That’s T-E-A-C-H-E-R-T-O-M-S dot C-O-M. Teacher Tom’s Podcast is a part of the Mirasee FM podcast Network, which also includes such shows as Course Lab and Just Between Coaches. Stay tuned for more fun episodes by following us on the Mirasee FM YouTube channel or your preferred podcast player. If you found today’s insights valuable, take a moment and leave us a starred review. It’ll help us reach more people like you. Again, tanks for playing with me, and I’ll catch you in the next episode.