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Storytelling Stokes Business (Sharon Richmond) Transcript

Once Upon a Business – Episode 81

Storytelling Stokes Business (Sharon Richmond)

Lisa Bloom: To me, it speaks of sometimes the short sightedness or even blindness of leaders who are so convinced of their way and definitely ego. Definitely this idea of I have to know the way, I have to follow the path. I can’t say I don’t know. And obviously, the outcome is never good when that’s what leads first.

Sharon Richmond: I’m Sharon Richmond, host of To Lead is Human, and with me today is Lisa Bloom, host of Once Upon a Business, another show that is on the Mirasee M podcast network, and honestly, one of my favorites. For more than 30 years, I’ve run a business called Leading Large. I coach C level executives to ten x their impact by clarifying focus, energizing their organizations, and building cultures of accountability and respect.

Lisa Bloom is widely known as the story coach. She’s the go to expert on business storytelling, and I think you’ll be able to tell why as you listen to our conversation today. For decades, Lisa has helped entrepreneurs and leaders master this important but overlooked skill. And that’s exactly why we’re having this episode for you today.

For those of you who aren’t familiar with once upon a business, in each episode, Lisa tells a fairy or folk tale and then extracts rich business lessons that are applicable for entrepreneurs. I truly love Lisa’s show, as she beautifully demonstrates not only what makes a good story and how to tell one, but also how to draw out the lessons from each timeless tale. So here’s how our episode will go today. After I welcome Lisa to the show, we’ll listen to a story from a recent episode of Once Upon a Business. So you’ll be able to hear the sound effects and music that set the tone. Then we’ll draw out the lessons for you and other leaders, and we’ll talk about them.

Doesn’t that sound fun? That’s what I thought. And Lisa was game and decided to run this episode on her Once Upon a Business podcast feed as well. So we’re both excited to see how this conversation unfolds. Lisa, welcome to the show. I’m so glad we could make this happen.

Lisa: Thank you so much. So am I. I’m thrilled to be here.

Sharon: That is terrific. And it is my pleasure. So, Lisa, today we’re going to listen to the tale Monkeys Rescue the Moon. It’s such an interesting story, and we’re going to have a lot to talk about about how to apply the lesson. So without further ado, let’s get going.

Lisa: Long ago, there was a band of monkeys living deep in the forest. They went to a watering hole each day where they drank and took their baths. One moonlit night, the leader of the monkeys could not sleep. He got up to stretch his legs and get a drink of water. When he looked upon the dark surface of the water, what do you think he saw there? He saw the moon’s bright reflection shining back at him, and he thought the moon had fallen into the water.

“Wake up, wake up,” the monkey leader cried to his fellow monkeys. They climbed down from the trees where they were sleeping and tethered around the pool. “Look,” said the leader. The moon has fallen into the water. If we do not rescue it immediately, the night sky will be doomed forever to darkness. Get a branch so we can climb out over the water and rescue the moon. The monkeys scurried to find a long branch. “Hurry, hurry,” said the leader. “The moon might sink at any moment.”

A feeble old grandfather monkey looked up to the sky and saw the moon. He scratched himself and mumbled, “The moon is where it always is.” But no one heard him. They were too busy dragging the long branch out from under the trees. Some of the monkeys held the branch over the deep water, while others climbed upon it and inched their way towards its tip. As more and more monkeys climbed onto the branch, it began to droop from the weight. It wasn’t long before the branch gave out.

Suddenly, all the monkeys were pulled with it into the depths of the pool. Only the old one remained on shore. He looked sadly into the water. The moon was still reflected there, but his fellow monkeys were gone without a trace. This tale is from Tibet and interpreted by Erica Helm Mead.

Sharon: This is such a gripping story, and while there are a lot of potential places to go with it, I think I want to start with the importance of checking assumptions. The peril in this story was entirely perceived and mostly not questioned. What does that bring up for you, Lisa?

Lisa: Well, you know, to be honest, the first thing it brings up is it reminds me of that child’s book, if you remember the book called Chicken Licken. You know, Chicken Licken’s going for a walk and an acorn falls on his head, and he’s convinced that the sky is falling down. And so it’s kind of a similar story where all the animals follow him just in such a panic. The sky is falling down, the sky is falling down. And, of course, it was just an acorn.

And so this kind of story is familiar in that people, or animals, in this case, the metaphor for people, they make an assumption. They follow the assumption to their doom in both cases. So it’s a cautionary tale, and it has so many lessons for us in leadership and in business and organizations.

Sharon: Yeah, that’s great. And I do remember that story. I think we called it Chicken Little. The sky’s falling. The sky is falling. Henny Penny and Lucky Ducky and all the other funny little animal names.

Lisa: Finally, they find Foxy.

Sharon: That’s right.

Lisa: And guides them into the den and then devours them all.

Sharon: Yeah. Here the monkeys all drown. So the first time I heard it, I was so struck by the image of the elder monkey sitting quietly, watching, checking the facts, looking up into the sky, saying, hmm, I see there’s a moon on the water, but let me look. And so that checking the facts is a really good place to start. But I guess where it took me next was how there are often voices in our organizations that we don’t hear that have such wisdom to share. And so maybe you want to share some thoughts on that, too.

Lisa: Yeah, that was my thought as well. Interesting that he had the wisdom, but he had no voice, or at least his voice wasn’t heard. And it brings me to that place of, at times, ageism in organizations where older people are less considered, where the young, bright, sparkly new idea comes in, takes over. Whereas the wisdom in the organization, the wisdom in the people who’ve been around for a lot longer is not always heard. But I also question his almost lackadaisical kind of, he’s not going to save the day, he’s not going to be a hero. He just says what he says and sits back and watches. I think that’s kind of curious.

Sharon: That is kind of curious. Yeah. He doesn’t seem to feel accountable for making more noise or overshadowing the noise of the crowd. So I wonder what that thinking would be like for him there.

Lisa: Yeah, I mean, to me, it’s kind of like this idea that you let the young ones do the things they have to do and let that move on. It’s almost like some kind of retribution, even of people who aren’t smart enough to actually have the right perspective. Then we let them do what they need to do, and the next generation will come, or the next group of monkeys will come.

So there’s something about this, almost like this cyclical nature where things are going to fail, but then they’ll come round and they will succeed afterwards, which is true in many organizations. You do have this cycle. There’s inevitable failures, but ultimately the wisdom is that in time it will repair. In time it will come around perhaps. There’s a patience in that. There’s a patience in his sitting back and just not being heard, but knowing that all is well, that the moon is still in the sky and we will not remain in darkness.

Sharon: Yeah, it’s interesting just thinking about this while I was listening to you. I’m thinking of the dynamic that happens in multigenerational family businesses, whereas the elder members of the family ascend into the more and more senior roles, there’s a certain amount of restraint that they must show in order to let the younger generation flex itself, flex its power and authority, flex its innovative muscle.

Lisa: And make the mistakes that they need to learn from.

Sharon: That exactly. Make the mistakes they need to make. I think hopefully not in such a fatal way as this story shows, but the power of metaphor is that we can then say, metaphorically, this group of monkeys rushed forward without checking the facts, didn’t consult the wiser elder member of their tribe, and ran into some big problems. So, as a leader is ascending, they do often feel like, I can repair all the problems of the past with quick action and foresight. But in this case, seems like this leader has a little bit of hubris.

Lisa: Yeah, I mean, that was very interesting to me as well. It’s not like these are the young monkeys who get into a panic, decide that the moon is disappearing and drowning. This is the leader. It’s the monkey leader who does this. And to me, it speaks of sometimes the short sightedness or even blindness of leaders who are so convinced of their way and definitely ego. Definitely this idea of, I have to know the way. I have to follow the path. I can’t say. I don’t know. And obviously, the outcome is never good when that’s what leads first.

Sharon: Yes, I agree with that. And I think that we do, all of us, as leaders, sometimes do fall a little in love with our own ideas. And at those moments, it’s always really helpful to check with others for, again, like a reality check. What am I missing? Is there something I’ve assumed that doesn’t prove to be true in this case? Look up. There’s the moon. All is well, but in other cases, different.

Lisa: Yeah. It speaks to the importance of having that team, whether it’s a team of peers or advisors, mentors or coaches, or someone who can actually help you see the blind spots, because every leader is going to have a blind spot. Not, you know, and I love. It’s a real metaphor here, the blind spot is literally the moon. You know, literally the darkness that he fears, that’s his blind spot. And to be able to say, okay, I know I’m going to have blind spots, and clearly, I won’t see them, but I will put in place some kind of system, some kind of team, some kind of support system that will help me see it so that I don’t have to make those fatal mistakes.

Sharon: Yeah. Another thing about the elder monkey, at least my impression is he spoke in a softer voice. He wasn’t hollering out to catch attention. It also brings to my mind what happens when you have team members who are a bit quieter and may have really important insights, really important ideas that would further the goals of the organization, and if not asked, may not speak up. And that also feels like a risk for a leader in an organization who’s not talking and what are they seeing?

Lisa: I think there’s often the character in an organization who is very quiet, and when he or she speaks, people listen. And the danger with that is when they don’t speak and people don’t ask. Right. This assumption that if they’ve got something to say, they’ll say it, and some people don’t. And I think as a leader, absolutely, the onus on the leader is to say, okay, I’m going to hear all the voices here, not just the ones that speak loudest, not just the ones that speak most often, but I’m going to make an effort to hear the voices that are quieter and to gain the perspective and sometimes the wisdom of those that are not the loud ones, not the noisy ones.

Sharon: Yeah, definitely that. The other thing I’ve been thinking a lot lately about, there’s a new book been written called the Friction Project, and I’m thinking a lot about good friction and bad friction. It’s a book by Bob Sutton and Huggy Rao, who both teach at Stanford University system. And they talk about bad friction as the things that slow us down in an organization and cause problems. Excess bureaucracy, micromanagement, lots of little things that create unpleasant friction in a work day or a work week.

But they also talk about the importance of good friction and how do we build in checks and balances so that we pause, maybe to check the assumptions, maybe to check the facts. In this case, these monkeys would have benefited from a little good friction from a collaborative meeting to say, hey, what’s the problem we’re trying to solve for here? One of my very favorite questions. And then what do we do about it?

Lisa: Yeah, I think the trick here is also awareness. Let’s identify the good friction and let’s figure out how to create it, like how to pay attention to it. But I think it’s also this idea that you’re going to create some kind of checks and balance, some kind of system or process that enables that friction to come to light, because oftentimes, there’s awareness on the one hand, but then there’s also intentional process that’s going to make it happen.

Sharon: Yes. And that’s kind of what they talk about is how does a leader know when and where in your organization to put a little bit of good friction to slow down the process so we don’t move faster than we should without checking out the unintended consequences, like our giant branch slipping into the darkness of the water at night, taking all its little monkeys with it.

Lisa: It seems to me one of the places that we don’t always have that intentional, positive friction is around our strategy thinking. So oftentimes, we have an idea that strategy is all about ideation. It’s all about coming up with these great new ideas and this great innovation. We forget to create the friction that says, wait a minute, what are we actually solving for here? What is the problem that we’re trying to solve and what are the options that we have without jumping towards the fun bit? You know, the ideation is always fun, but we want to be able to take a step back and say, actually, let’s just make sure we’re on track here. So we’re not creating a solution to a problem we’re not even trying to solve.

Sharon: Yeah, that’s great. That’s really smart. So is there anything else out of this story that comes to your mind that we might call out?

Lisa: So I think there’s something to be said for the monkeys that follow the leader blindly. And I remember a few years ago doing some research into leadership presence, and one of the leaders I interviewed said to me, a leader is made a leader by the people who follow them. And so you can’t decide you’re a leader. You have to have people who follow you who call you a leader, which I think is very smart. And it occurs to me in this situation that leaders who have blind followers, they may call them a leader, but they’re not leading very successfully. Like, we want to have some, again, maybe it’s checks and balances, but also some kind of dialogue, some kind of culture where people are able to address the leader and say, wait a minute, I’m not just going to jump on that branch and drown in the pond. I’m going to actually ask the question, are you sure that this is the moon in the pond? Right.

And so I think creating a culture where people are not going to follow blindly, they’re going to bring analytical thinking. They’re going to bring ideas. They’re going to bring some kind of, again, some positive friction that’s going to actually stop the leader from just going on this, maybe in his mind it’s this heroic journey, but actually stop for a moment and say, well, what are we doing here? And are you sure? I think that’s really important, and that’s a culture issue. I think the culture that allows followers to say to their leader, wait, tell me more. Explain this to me. Let’s think it through.

Sharon: Yeah, very much that. I think part of what’s being called out here is that if you choose to be an intentional leader, you have the opportunity to pull many different levers, but you do have to kind of take that moment up front and think through what are the choices here and which one’s going to give us short term, medium term, long term, the outcomes that will be best for us and our organization, or in this case, our community of monkeys. But there’s also something about how do we tell the difference between a real threat and a perceived threat?

Lisa: Yeah, I mean, that’s a tricky one, especially nowadays when there seems to be just no end of threats in every possible way in business and organizations.

Sharon: And not just things that are what we might call real, but things that have now been created out of, let’s say, AI technologies or large language models where can we even always tell the difference between a message that is real and a message that is misleading or misstated? So I do think there’s something important in this day and age about figuring out how can your organization test to see if what we believe is real is actually real, whether it’s a threat or whether it’s an opportunity.

Lisa: And then also the fear that comes up with the threat. Yeah, the fear, the panic, just the lack of confidence around stepping out and challenging anything that comes from an environment where we’re not clear what’s real and what isn’t. So, yeah, I mean, I just think it calls for really brave leadership.

Sharon: And I guess really brave followership as well, to your earlier point. So this is a great example to me about where leadership lessons literally can come from anywhere and everywhere, and how important story is not just to clarifying what we think about things, but into communicating with others how we want them to grow. So I wonder if you could honor our listeners with some tips on how can leaders use story? How should they be using story?

Lisa: Well, yeah, this is kind of the essence of what I do, is I find these beautiful stories that have layers and layers of meaning. And they can be, these layers can be kind of pulled out and applied in the areas that leaders are looking for support. And the beauty of this is that stories are so simple and they’re so compelling. And I’ve yet to meet an adult who can resist a well told story. You know, they just love it. They just kind of get sucked into the story.

And so to be able to tell a good story and then extrapolate from that the lessons and the learnings and the wisdom that we want to share with our teams or with our colleagues, it’s just a much easier way to deliver a very powerful message. So I’ve worked with leaders who will share a story with their team and have them think it through. And then again, almost like this back-and-forth dialogue around, what do we learn from this, and how does this apply and how can we use it? It’s a way to embed learning and embed experience almost physiologically through the story because it’s so powerful, because it’s so compelling.

And so my invitation is always to leaders to share the stories, stories of their own experience, stories within their organization. And then, even if they dare to go to fairy tales and folk tales and share these beautiful stories that have just generations of wisdom that you would imagine a fairy tale, how can that help us? Well, it does. It’s phenomenal. I’ve had so many experiences of going into organizations and having leaders just almost melt into a story. It creates, suddenly this creative environment where anything’s possible and where, again, this creativity, this innovation comes out of a story space because it’s imagination, but it’s also real-life learning and wisdom. It’s just a very, very powerful medium.

Sharon: It is in that the idea that a story is symbolic as well as real, so is that something leaders should build into stories? Should they try to build in symbolism?

Lisa: Well, I think there’s a danger of overtelling a story like these stories are powerful. They’ve come through generations and sometimes through many, many cultures, and they have survived because they’re powerful in and of themselves. So you don’t want to over tell or over imply through a story. I always say, let the story do the work. Like, you can literally tell a story and then talk about what it means for you and what it might mean for the people you’re telling it to. It’s a way of opening up a space within which you can explore all kinds of ideas.

Because the story is so compelling, because the story is so memorable, and it’s literally a neurological and physiological experience to hear a story because of that, it’s remembered like we learned a lesson, and we remember the lesson because we remember the story and we remember the way it makes us feel. And that’s just such a powerful tool for leadership. So you don’t have to add anything. You don’t have to work beyond the symbols that already exist in the story. If they weren’t there, it wouldn’t have lasted this long. But it’s there and it’s powerful, and it’s just waiting to be told.

Sharon: I particularly love this story, and I don’t exactly know why, except that there’s so much in it about how communities can move forward or not based on who they listen to and how, and what the role of each member of that community is. So this story tells me we would all have still been alive if anyone had spoken up. And that, of course, brings to mind the psychological safety research of Amy Edmondson and others that we’ve talked about on and off on this show. But this idea that anyone could have spoken up, even the youngest, smallest person, monkey, in this case, or the oldest, quietest monkey, if we feel as individuals responsible for the whole, then we can do that.

Lisa: I love that. That’s beautiful. And I think there’s an invitation here for you and for anyone listening to ask that question. What is it about the story that really grabs me? What is it the story that really calls to me, because there’s something in your experience, personally, that this speaks to, as there is with every story we hear. So it might be you missed an opportunity to speak at some stage that you should have taken, or perhaps you wanted somebody else to speak up at a time when they didn’t.

There’s something in this experience of the story that really speaks to you personally, and that’s why you’re so drawn to it. And that’s what I love about stories because people relate to them in ways that you can’t even imagine, but they stay with you, and then they kind of motivate you to think more thoroughly, to think more deeply about your own experience and what you can bring into the world you’re in.

Sharon: It’s so interesting. You’re really right about that. And I think for me, I was always a young person that felt free to speak up, and it just didn’t always go that well. It wasn’t always well received. And so there were times when my speaking up created problems for others and therefore created problems for me. And so I can understand why it is that people sometimes choose to hold back so I think I can feel both sides of that. But inside of me, what I want is for some monkey to speak up. I want someone to say, look up, look around.

Lisa: And you want to be able to speak up.

Sharon: And I want to be able to speak up. Yes, absolutely.

Lisa: To be heard and continue to stop the sky from falling down and the moon.

Sharon: So I think that’s what I love about this story, and that’s probably where it connects to me personally.

Lisa: Beautiful.

Sharon: Yeah. So, anything else you want to share with listeners about how to choose a story or…

Lisa: Well, it’s interesting. I mean, what you just shared is a beautiful example of how sometimes the story chooses us. We’re not always aware of why we’re drawn to a story, but to follow what that feels like. You know, there are times I’ll hear a story and I’ll think, wow, that’s a great story. I know I’ll never tell it. And other times I hear a story and I just know I’m going to tell it for the rest of my life. I just continue to tell it again and again. And so the invitation here is to really think about, firstly, allow yourself be drawn to a story, but also to take some time to explore why you’re so drawn to a story. What does it mean? And it’s actually an important thing to do.

Just recently I was speaking to a leader who said to me that sometimes when he shares stories, he becomes emotional and it always catches him by surprise and it’s not always appropriate. And I said to him, it’s great because you obviously feel very deeply about some of the stories you share, and you need to do some work on that. You need to figure out what it is that’s really touching you and decide if it is appropriate to tell it in that situation or what it is about the situation that, in this telling, brings you to a place that’s emotional. And when we understand that, we just bring so much more kind of rich interaction between ourselves and our teams or our colleagues.

Now, again, I’m not suggesting we grab the stories that make us most emotional, but more just to understand why we’re so drawn to something and then to share it, because it’s the most basic human need to share our stories. You know, when anything happens, the first thing we do is we go tell someone. And in that telling, we assume that we’re being completely objective and we’re never being objective. We’re totally subjective in the telling of the story, of the thing that just happened, we assume it to be truth and it never is. It’s just this thing that we’re trying to recall, right?

And then it becomes this truth that we live with forevermore, whether it serves us or does us a disservice. It’s amazing we’re so attached to these stories. So the invitation is really to pay attention to the stories, the stories that you feel drawn to tell. Do some work on them, understand them, understand what they mean for you, so that you can share that meaning with others and allow the space for them to bring their own meaning as well. And that’s the magic of story.

Sharon: Yeah, this is really beautiful. So, for those of you listening, find a story that chooses you and do some work on why does that story touch you? I think the way it dovetails into evolving leadership, at least in part of how I think about it, is we learn more about ourselves, and the more we know about ourselves, the better we are able to choose our behaviors so that we can achieve the outcomes we’re looking for with our groups and teams. And so finding a story that could help your group come together might just be a lovely way to start your next all hands meeting or off site.

Lisa: Perfect. Absolutely.

Sharon: So I’ll ask you as we wrap up today, Lisa. The question I ask every single guest, but with a little twist, the title of this podcast is, as you know, To Lead is Human. And I ask everyone, what does this title mean to you? But for you, because of your incredible data bank of stories, I wonder, what story does it suggest to you, if anything, to lead is human?

Lisa: Oh, my goodness. Of course, I haven’t prepared for this, but I would like to share a story that it’s just on my mind at the moment, given that there are so many challenges that we face as humans and as leaders. And it’s a story that comes to mind because I’ve come to see, especially in recent times, when things have been pretty challenging, how joy and satisfaction and peace is really an inside job. We can’t rely on our environment to provide that for us. So is it okay if I share that story?

Sharon: More than okay. Can’t wait.

Lisa: So, this is one of my favorites. There was a king who was fascinated by the idea of peace, and he wanted to own peace, and so he sent out to the entire kingdom that he wanted an artist, or anybody who could create a picture, the perfect picture of peace. And the person who could create this perfect picture would be greatly rewarded. He invited people to bring their pictures, their paintings, their drawings to the palace, and they all did. And so he was left with many, many paintings, many, many pictures, and he went through each one of them to try and decide which was the perfect picture of peace.

And so, after many days of going through all of these pictures, he finally was down to the last two, and he had to choose between them. The first picture, it was a beautiful, clear lake. And around the lake were these beautiful mountains full of kind of luscious greenery. And above the mountains was a perfect blue sky with a few little fluffy white clouds. And anybody looking at this picture really felt that it was the perfect picture of peace.

But then there was the second picture. In the second picture, it also had water, and it also had mountains. But these mountains were rugged and bare, and the water was this waterfall that was crashing down the side of the mountain. Above the mountains was a dark, grey sky. There was even signs of lightning and thick black clouds. It didn’t seem like a very peaceful place at all. But when the king looked closer, he noticed that behind the waterfall, there was a rock. And on the rock, there was a bush. And sitting in the bush was a mother bird sitting on her nest, and she looked incredibly peaceful.

So the king went back and forth between these two paintings, and finally, he chose the second one, because he said, peace isn’t just when everything is perfect and quiet and beautiful. Peace is when you’re in the midst of a great storm, great challenges, terrible things happening. And yet, in that moment, you can sit still and you can find peace in your heart. That’s the true meaning of peace. And so that was the painting he chose.

Sharon: Goosebumps. I don’t know what else to say. Goosebumps. That’s a lovely story.

Lisa: I love that story because it reminds me, as I said before, that peace, joy, calm, and often great leadership is an inside job. It’s not something that anybody’s going to create a perfect environment within which you can be the ultimate leader and you can be super successful. It’s about taking the challenges and taking the unknown and taking all the things that you wish just didn’t happen and being able to find that place where you are grounded and you are centered and you can bring your best self. And to me, that is the ultimate humanity in leadership.

Sharon: Nearly speechless, which, as you all know, never happens. It reminds me, Lisa, of a mantra that I share with clients sometimes. We talk all the time about executive presence, and I remind them, calm, capable, and curious. And that’s kind of what I feel when you talk about that mother bird. Like, the world is crazy. It’s chaos, there’s drama, and I’m sitting here on my nest as calm as I can manage, taking care of what is right in front of me, which is very precious and just being open to what comes next. So I love your story, too. Thank you.

Lisa: Oh, I love that. Thank you.

Sharon: Thank you so much for coming on the show, for sharing yourself and your stories. And you’re just amazing perspective. First off, those of you who don’t know, I adore Lisa. We’ve known each other for about five years and she’s just a great person to talk to and hang out with. So lucky all of us for getting to hang out with her today and to learn and to think and thanks for all you put into your show as well. I listen to it every single time it comes out. I don’t know how often it drops, but however often it drops, it’s on my playlist. And I love your podcast.

Lisa: Thank you so much for having me. It’s been a real pleasure.

Sharon: I know that people will want to know more about you, so we’ll include information about you and your work and about the Once Upon a Business podcast in our show notes. And if you happen to be listening right now on Lisa’s podcast feed, then you’ll also find some information about me and about Leading Large in our show notes.

I’m Sharon Richmond, and this has been a special crossover episode of To Lead is Human and Once Upon a business. You can find out more about me at That’s L-E-A-D-I-N-G large dot com and you can learn more about Lisa Bloom at To Lead is Human and Once Upon a Business are both part of the Mirasee FM podcast Network, which also includes such fabulous shows as Course Lab and Making It.

This episode was produced by Cynthia Lamb. Andrew Chapman assembled the episode. Danny Iny is our executive producer and post production is provided by Marvin del Rosario. So you don’t miss upcoming episodes, please follow both of our shows on Mirasee FM’s YouTube channel or, of course, on your favorite podcast player. If you took something valuable away today, leave us a starred review and make sure to tell some other leaders about us. The more people we can reach, the more we can all think about how to be the best leaders we can, the better for everyone.

Thank you so much for listening and Lisa and I will see you next time on either To Lead as Human or Once Upon a Business.