Just Between Coaches – Episode #143
Stop Losing Leads: Follow-Up Frameworks That Work (Michaelangelo Gerardi)
Michaelangelo Gerardi: I have a follow up that goes out seven days after like a re-offer and then 30 days after another re offer. After that, it’s just really manual after that piece. But the automation for me comes two hours after seven days after and 30 days after the call.
Melinda Cohan: What if I told you that there is a way to master the art of turning client follow ups into a profit driving machine? Business opportunities often slip through the cracks due to overlooked or poorly executed follow ups. But why are these follow ups so crucial and how do they impact the bottom line of coaches and entrepreneurs?
I’m Melinda Cohan and you’re listening to Just Between Coaches. I run a business called the Coaches Console and we’re proud to have helped tens of thousands of coaches create profitable and thriving businesses. This is a podcast where we answer burning questions that newer coaches would love to ask a more expensive, experienced coach. For newer coaches stepping into the arena, the path to mastering follow ups can seem daunting. But fear not, my guest will unveil practical strategies and frameworks designed to ensure that no leads escape unnoticed. So stay tuned to elevate your follow up game.
Michaelangelo Girardi is joining me today for this amazing conversation. He’s the visionary founder at NextGen CEOs. He’s known for turning struggling online coaches into six figure earners and has transformed over 100 coaches in just six months using his content to cash method. And without paid ads, he scaled his own business to over a million dollars in revenue. Welcome Michaelangelo.
Michaelangelo: Thanks for having me. Super excited to be here.
Melinda: I love this topic. Most folks don’t, but before we get into that, would you mind sharing a little bit of your background?
Michaelangelo: I come from a personal training background. Originally my goal was to be a physical therapist, open up my own clinic. I actually went all the way through undergrad, got to the very end semester of graduate school and had my business fitness running through this point and I decided I don’t have time to go to school anymore because of my business. So I dropped out of graduate school right before I got my doctor’s degree to pursue my coaching business online full time. It’s been great. We’ve been helping people lose weight and feel better over the last four years. Now, I’ve transitioned into helping other coaches build a successful online coaching fitness business like myself.
Melinda: I love it. With this topic that we’re going to get into, I want to highlight something before we start our conversation. You know Michaelangelo, you specialize in coaching online entrepreneurs and the principles that we’re about to discuss, I mean they’re going to apply to coaches, no matter what niche they’re in, whether you’re guiding clients in person or on the phone, Zoom or however you’re working with people, this is going to be true no matter what your niche or what your venue or what your work. If you’re delivering a set of services to clients, stay tuned because this conversation is for you.
When we talk about follow up, people just start going cross eyed and blaze over and they’re like, no, no. If they want to hire me, they’ll reach out to me. That’s what I hear so often. This is an often overlooked, usually poorly executed aspect in so many businesses. Why do you think that is? Why is that the mindset for so many people?
Michaelangelo: I think humans are inherently lazy. If we don’t have to do any more work than we have to, we’re going to make every excuse in the book to not have to do it. Right? I wish it was as easy as people just coming and knocking on our doors, but it’s not. And it can be a little uncomfortable. Right? Everyone’s gotten that phone call from the Verizon telemarketer trying to sell something and if it’s just a hang up and it kind of just feels icky. So I totally understand why most people may want to stray away from it. But there is an ethical way to do it. There’s a friendly way to do it that is actually in that prospect’s best interest. So it’s a mindset frame and change that I think you have to make to get really comfortable with it.
Melinda: Yeah. And so let’s talk about that shift. So why do you believe that mastering follow ups is critical and crucial for coaches and entrepreneurs? How does it directly impact their bottom line?
Michaelangelo: So there was a study and it broke it down into like three different categories. The biggest one that stood out to me was only 5% of the people you speak to for the first time are ready to buy. If you speak to a hundred people, only five are ready to buy no matter what you say. The sale is made after that initial impression. If you can make a really good impression on that first call and lead with value, then eventually they’re going to be in the buyer’s mindset and you’re at the top of mind. Not everyone comes on calls and is ready to buy right away. We all go through different seasons of life, but it’s just who’s at the top of mind when it happens.
Melinda: Now when I hear coaches say they know how to get in touch with me if they’re ready, they’ll reach out. Only 5% of the people are going to reach out. And so what happens to the other folks? Right. It’s like you’re just letting them sit there. And I know that some people, like, for me, I’m a processor. Even when I’m a hell yes, I’m still going to process. I give myself the 24-hour rule and I don’t make any decision until I sit on it for at least 24 hours. Even if there’s an urgency or it fills the exact need, I still give myself that 24-hour rule. So when we’re looking at the rest of like the other 95%, tell us about that group of people.
Michaelangelo: Yeah, so I’m a very hard sell. And I’m assuming you’re a very hard sell if you like to process things after 24 hours. And that just comes from being good at sales or service calls. I like to talk about it. Right? So if you’re picking up tonality and having a conversation, you’re just not getting the vibe that this person is going to buy. I call it the delayed follow up. So you come in and you say, hey, you know, I don’t want you to make a decision here. What I want you to do is actually think about all the information I gave to you and then we’ll talk about the details tomorrow or whenever we reschedule.
And the key part is I say, hey, I’m not going to tell prices or anything. I need to customize this program for you. But also, I don’t want money to be the blinder for you. I want you to think without money involved, is this the best solution to fix your problem? If the answer is yes, we can work out logistics on the next call. If the answer is no, I don’t want you to invest in something that you don’t think is going to work for you. So now when they come onto the call, they already know on that follow up call that this program works, everything’s fine, it’s just a matter of if I can afford it at this point.
And then you as the business owner, you work out the logistics with them. So I think that other 95%, if you push too hard, you’re going to lose them. But that doesn’t mean don’t push and challenge them on that initial call. It just kind of comes with repetitions.
Melinda: Yeah, I find breaking it down into bite sized pieces, like give them a little bit. Like you said, don’t worry about the details. We’re just going to focus on this one question and then we’ll get to the next thing. Now, a lot of the students that we teach, one of the things that they bring to us, I love the idea about delayed follow up, right? They’re like, Melinda, they’re ghosting me. Like, they were so excited and so in and so ready and we set up that next conversation and now they’re nowhere to be found. Like, they’re not following up on my emails, they’re not returning my voicemails. How do you handle that? Talk about that situation?
Michaelangelo: So how do we prevent it first? Right. If you keep getting ghosted after the initial triage call, let’s call it, you need to do a better job of providing value and getting them excited for the next call. If all you’re doing is qualifying them on the initial call and they have no value, why are they going to give you another 30 minutes of their time when they just got off the phone thinking this is a complete waste of 30 minutes? So the initial call should be building rapport and providing value. But yes, also you want to prospect this person.
Now let’s say we do all that and they’re still not answering. I always say people need seven follow ups before you can take them off the follow up list. There are three different types of follow ups and we can get into that if you want. But essentially, you follow up with them until they answer or they say, stop texting me. Either way, you lose that person if you do not get them to answer.
Melinda: I love that you have nothing to lose. I mean, my mom would always say, if you don’t ask, the answer is always no.
Michaelangelo: Exactly.
Melinda: Right? You have nothing to lose. And this is where people are like, but I don’t want to be pushy. That’s not being pushy. It’s being thorough. I think there’s a fine line and a distinction between being thorough and being pushy. Being pushy is almost, you know, being rude. We don’t want to be rude. And like you said, if we’ve provided the value up front, then we’re not being pushy. We’re just being thorough. And so let’s talk about that for a second in preventing. When you talk about do a better job of providing value, give us some examples. What does that look like?
Michaelangelo: So getting down, and we call it kind of chunking down on their goal. Right? So someone, let’s use a fitness example just because that’s what I know. But you can do this, whoever you are, whatever you’re doing. If someone tells you, I want to lose 20 pounds. And you take that at surface value and that’s it. Great, we can help you lose 20 pounds. But if you chunk down and get them to admit that losing 20 pounds will help them, come off medication, have energy to play with their kids after a long day at work, that will help them fit in those clothes that they did back in college.
If you have the solution to those problems now, those are problems that they want to show up for. Right? Losing 20 pounds, they may not think of the consequences of being 20 pounds overweight on their life, but if you make them problem aware, they are much more likely to want the answers to those pain points on the next call. So it’s about chunking down on the surface level goal.
Melinda: Yeah, I love that. One of the things that we share with our students is, you know, when you ask them the goals and what their desired outcomes are, like, I want to lose 20 pounds. Whatever they say, when that becomes a reality, what’s the ripple effect going to be? How’s that going to impact your relationships? When you reach this goal and it’s a reality, how’s that going to impact your financial situation, your career? And just going through a lot of different categories to really help them see the consequences and the impact? I think that’s where they can really paint that picture and see that value. Is there any other suggestions or tips you have for creating that value?
Michaelangelo: Yeah, I think you can go the opposite way. Visualization is a very powerful tool no matter how you use it. So if you can allow them to envision 12 months from now, if you’re in this spot, how will this change your life? Positive. Glass half full. Now let’s take the glass half empty. Hey, if nothing changes 12 months from now, when you wake up 20 pounds overweight, can’t go up the flight of stairs without being out of breath and still have no energy to get through your day. Looking back, how would you feel if you had the opportunity to change and you didn’t? So allowing them to see, oh my goodness, if I don’t change, this is where this is going to lead me. And so bringing up those emotions, you know, will really get someone to buy into your process.
Melinda: Yeah. I also love to share stories about other folks that I have worked with that were in a similar situation. And I’ll pull a tip about. Well, this person was addressing this and here’s something that they found helpful that we were working through. And as a result, they were able to fill in the blank. And it gives them a small little tip. It’s like, ooh, that’s really interesting. So there’s a piece of value that I’m delivering.
Michaelangelo: Yeah.
Melinda: It also lets them understand how I approach this and if that resonates with them. I love that you talked about preventing it first. Now when you were talking about turning that around, if they’re still ghosting you, you stuck a comment in there that said something like, well, there’s a few things that I can share with you if you’d like to. So what would you have for our listeners?
Michaelangelo: Awesome. So what I teach my students is really the different types of follow ups. Right? So you get off a call, didn’t close, a few different ways to go about it. Put yourself in their shoes. If you just got off a call and they’re bombarding you with, hey, hey, can you, are you there? Hey, can you hear me? Like, it gets very annoying. So you can do a personal follow up, right? Based off anything that the lead told you on the sales call. Did you move to a new area? Hey, I remember you telling me you moved to San Francisco, you know, April 30th. How’s that going? Or did you start that new job? Just show that you care and remember who they are. So personal follow up. That’s one.
Then you have the value follow up. Right? Contrasting now and then. Right? And the vibe is kind of like, hey, what has changed since we last spoke? You could ask, what progress have they made? And then one of my favorite ones and really my main strategy is the content tagging strategy where I’ll go in and say, hey, have you seen the new weight loss training that I put out? Just tagged you in it. Send. Did you get the notification? Send. They’re responding to you, obviously. And you say, awesome. By the way, did you ever get clear on how to structure your workout program or figure out how those macros and calories work? So providing them value, hey, I tagged you in this. They’ll say, thank you.
And it just opens up the conversation. And then you bring into awareness because the answer is probably no. Okay. We talked four months ago. Have you figured any of this out? It allows them to reflect, oh, my God, it’s been four months and I’m still in the same position. So that kind of triggers them to see, hey, maybe I do need some help.
Melinda: Yeah. And I love that because another thing that we’ll get from students is exactly what you just said. Oh, my gosh. I talked to some people, but it’s been months. Can I still reach out to them or should I just mark them off the list and move on. It’s like, no, stay in touch with them. And so I love the three ways, whether it’s personal or value or the content tagging. And I love how you make it a by the way, it’s more of just a little prompt, nothing pressured or pushy about it. You’re naturally inquiring about them. You’re getting curious, which is one of the greatest coaching skills there is, is just get curious with them and about them.
Michaelangelo: Yeah.
Melinda: Now, when we look at follow up, and you said earlier, you know, there’s seven touches. I’ve seen some studies that say it takes 12 touches. And there was one that says 32 touches before there’ll be a client. I’m like, what kind of work are y’all doing? And there’s so many studies with so many numbers. But the point is that it takes multiple touches.
Michaelangelo: Yeah.
Melinda: Consistency and multiple times. And so it could be email. It could be, like you said, tagging them in a social media post. It could be a phone call. What are some other ways that you can quote, unquote, touch them in that follow up?
Michaelangelo: Yeah. So you could also do a reoffer. Right? So depending on what they said, if they told you, hey, I just can’t afford it, or just took out a mortgage on this house or I’m moving, it’s not a good time. There’s only three types of objections, right? You have spousal timing and money or just value. So depending on which of those objections they gave you, you come up with a reoffer for them. So if you were to tell me, Melinda, hey, I really want to do this program, but I just can’t afford it right now. I just bought a car.
What am I going to do 30 days later? Hey, you know, we’re giving away a free month of coaching for anyone that wants to join. So that takes care of the money situation. Hey, I have a new financially friendly package for you that I think would still help you reach your goals, but isn’t as much as what we talked about before. For timing, hey, we’re letting people start for free for 30 days, and you have basically a free month of coaching. So that way, if it’s not a good time, no worries, because no time officially is accruing in your free time.
You could also offer something along the lines of like a relief or a value. Hey, we want you to try this out. If you don’t like it, full refund after a week. That takes care of the belief of whether or not it’s going to work for them. So reoffers are super powerful and you know, one that generates a lot of coaches a lot of money.
Melinda: I love that. I love it. One of the other distinctions is, you know, some people will be like okay, I get follow up, I’m going to do a better job of that and I start doing it. But then there’s a distinction between just handling the follow up one off and making sure you’re reaching out to people versus effective follow up sequences. A lot of people get super nervous or overwhelmed when you start talking about follow up sequences. Talk to us a little bit about that. What are some practical strategies or ideas that coaches can implement so that creating a sequence and automating it can be super helpful.
Michaelangelo: Yeah. So where in the day and age where things are becoming less and less personable. So like is automation very helpful? Yes. But I think if you have the bandwidth, make it a personable follow up. I always do text, email, text, email, text that way different avenues, maybe a Facebook messenger, different ways to follow up. If you’re someone who’s super busy, very high volume, I think having automations is definitely useful. So what we do is two hours after not closing we send hey what you think of a call sort of thing just to kind of recap and get a idea of how they’re feeling before that delayed follow up call.
Depending on how they respond is how you respond. If they don’t answer, that’s worst-case scenario. I have a follow up that goes out seven days after like a re-offer and then 30 days after, another re offers after that. It’s just really manual after that piece. But the automation for me comes two hours after, seven days after and 30 days after the call.
Melinda: Yeah, I love that and I love the text, email, text. Just getting the different modalities in. So many people are like oh, they’re ignoring my emails. Meanwhile it’s sitting in their spam, they haven’t even seen it. It’s like don’t jump to that conclusion. Just assume goodwill and reach out other ways. We’ve got a software company and so I love the power of software and automation, but I don’t want to lose the personal. And so I found it to be a both and, and I was able to find like here’s the common follow up that’s true for anybody that I talk to.
And so you know just a handful of little touch points and that message is applicable and valuable for anybody I talk to. And then I will do a one-off message here or personal Text there based on something we specifically talked about. So it’s a both. And I still leverage the automation to keep that consistency there.
Michaelangelo: Right.
Melinda: I used to say it’s easier for me to just shoot an email. Well if the person I just talked to, if the only way that they primarily communicate is by text, I should probably text him or if I’m talking to somebody else, well, they’re always on Facebook messenger and I found that when I can be mindful of that, I get a quicker response from them. And just because I’m communicating in the modality that they like; it feels more personal to them no matter what my message says.
Michaelangelo: Correct.
Melinda: So it takes a little bit of effort and I usually do that with my super-hot prospects that are just right on the tippy toes of saying yes. And I really want to put my time and attention on the side. I will customize it like that. But I do get in the automation. I think that’s important to have too.
Michaelangelo: Yeah, both definitely have their place. And similarly to you, we have a hot list of someone says, hey, just waiting for next week, let the check come in. What am I doing? I’m putting them in my calendar and for the next seven days I’m sending them testimonials, little free value stuff and I’m making sure that they stay excited until that seven days come.
Melinda: Yeah, yeah.
Michaelangelo: Sothat’s definitely more something you want to do personalized. If it’s a long term follow up, I think automation is great.
Melinda: Yeah. In Coaches Console, we segment our list so that you can label them hot prospect, hot lead. And so you know, whatever number of conversations you’re having, maybe you doing it individually or maybe you just had a webinar, but you can segment out those hot leads so you see them regularly and you’re putting your attention on them and you’re keeping them excited, you’re staying excited and I think it, it helps. It helps relieve the pressure for you and for them because they can make a very thorough, good decision, which often means they’re going to be a very thorough and good client.
Michaelangelo: Yeah, absolutely. And my favorite clients are the people who can make quick decisions and act on what you tell them. You know, they’re excited and money loves speed. I totally agree there.
Melinda: One of the other things that I’ve learned to do with follow up, again, just to take the pressure off things. If I’m talking with somebody and they’re like this sounds amazing, I really believe I’m a yes. And I’ve done my best to overcome their objections and I’ve worked through all of that. One of the things that I will say to help prevent the ghosting, to go back to what we were saying earlier is I will say okay, we’ve had this conversation. You know, you’re going to think about X or you’re going to look into Y or you’re going to talk to your spouse. Before I hang up or before I leave that conversation, I book the next one.
When can we talk? In the next two to three days to close this loop. No matter what decision you make. And I find that that phrase to close this loop is like oh yeah, whatever that is, let’s close this loop, let’s come back together, let’s tidy it up. And most of the time they’re a yes. On occasion they’re a no, not yet. And they tell me why. But I love that let’s close this loop. It really helps prevent the ghosting.
Michaelangelo: I like that. Even when you said that I was like hmm, that sounds good to me. So I think I’ll implement that.
Melinda: Yeah, borrow it, take it. But it just, again, it removes the pressure but it helps them see the value of not leaving that open. Now is there something that you know, you’re just talking about automation and I would think for a lot of seasoned coaches it can become very easy to get complacent or rely only on automated follow up systems. So how do you make sure that those interactions remain genuine, that you don’t get complacent? When you’re like, oh, I’ve got my drip sequence and it’s happening, how do you still be genuine and authentic?
Michaelangelo: I think it’s actually about wanting to serve. We’re in the service business, we want to change people’s lives, that’s why we do what we do. And people more than ever need human interaction. So and one thing, if your automations aren’t working it’s probably going to light a little fighter under your butt to fix something and probably want to take the personable route. But even if your automations are working, they’re eventually going to lead you to speak to that person one way or the other. So I think that relying on automations solely is probably not a good idea but for it to be a helping hand is, it’s definitely, you know, a scaling road and what you have to do to, to scale.
Melinda: Yeah, I love it just it all it’s comes from the mindset. Just don’t lose that mindset of what’s behind what we’re doing. Are there any mistakes to avoid when it comes to following up?
Michaelangelo: Uh, I think the biggest mistake is jacking them into a corner and making them feel all this stress and pressure. You just have to be able to put yourself in your prospect’s shoes. I think that’s such a simple thing to do, but it’s so overlooked where imagine if someone for once a month just hits you up and say, hey, you ready yet? Hey, you ready? It’s just annoying and it seems very salesy. If you come from a genuine place, you can take a deep breath, take a minute to process what you’re about to type out and ask before you actually do it to put yourself in this prospect’s shoes. So I think the biggest mistake to avoid is to just not always think about like seeing them as a dollar sign, but as a life that you can change and as a friend.
Melinda: I love that. With our effective follow up strategies, a lot of times the more we do this on the front end, it not only creates great clients but also builds long term relationships. They become repeat business. Re enroll into another round of coaching or our next program. And I’ve had clients that have been with me for years and are some of my closest friends now. Would you share some insights or examples of how strategic follow ups have not only closed sales for you but also led to ongoing client engagements or referrals in your own business?
Michaelangelo: Yeah, so if we talk about follow ups in terms of a client that is already a client, we talk about retention. So if we can have more touch points with this person, like you said, kind of become a friend with your coach and at that point maybe you’ve helped so and so lose X amount of pounds or make X amount of dollars. But they really like having you around to bounce questions off of as a mentor. They like the community you’ve built. If you always let them know following up within the program or mentorship that you have, that hey, there’s more after this and there’s more for you to learn. And hey, just to let you know, once you figure this out, we’re going to need to do this, this and this.
So being proactive about looking around the corner for your client and foreshadowing the future problems that they’re going to face once you help them fix the problem that you’re currently on is super important for retention. And you do that by continuously following up, hey, how you doing? Where are you at? And being proactive about helping get from A to Z.
Melinda: I love that. I mean that’s our job. That’s what we do is looking ahead and seeding those ideas and concepts and opportunities. I just want to summarize some of the things that we’ve talked about today. I love how you kicked us off, lead with value is the most important part of follow up. Like when we do that right from the get go, follow up is a great conversation and so that is so important. You talked to us about the delayed follow up and I love that we got into the topic of ghosting; first how to prevent it and then to how to handle it if it shows up. I love that you shared the three different ways to follow up with the personal, the value, or the content tagging. So awesome.
We talked about the follow up sequences and you gave us a nice template for I really appreciate that. We went through some of the mistakes that could be made and remember that we are being of service. We’re here to serve the people around us. If we just remember that, it makes the rest of the conversation so organic and effortless to have. Michaelangelo, any parting words for our listeners?
Michaelangelo: I think that if you’re listening to this and you’ve made it to the end here, I think you fully understand a better approach to follow up. Just remember, like you said, service first, lead with value and make sure that you always prioritize the client. My business changed when I stopped losing sleep over where I’m getting my next client and started to keep and make the best results for my current clients.
Melinda: I love it. Well, thank you for listening to this episode of Just Between Coaches and a big thank you to Michaelangelo Girardi for this great conversation. You can find out more about him on Instagram and you can get a great strategy playbook that he has over at coach.gerardiperformance.com/podcast-gifts. And that’s coach dot gerardi G E R A R D I performance dot com forward slash podcast dash gifts. In the show notes, you’ll find all the links about Michaelangelo and his amazing resources. Michaelangelo, thank you so much for coming to the show.
Michaelangelo: Thanks for having me. It’s been a pleasure.
Melinda: I’m Melinda Cohan and you’ve been listening to Just Between Coaches. Just Between Coaches is part of the Mirasee FM Podcast Network, which also includes such shows as Consciousness Explored and Making It. To catch the great episodes on Just Between Coaches, please follow us on merciful YouTube channel or your favorite podcast player. If you enjoyed the show, please leave us a comment or a starred review. It is the best way to help us get these ideas to more people. Thank you and see you next time.