Course Lab – Episode 102
Lean Into Uncommon Commonalities (Susan O’Connor)
Susan O’ Connor: It’s very unusual to find someone that loves storytelling and loves games. It’s usually one or the other. So when these people found each other, it was love at first sight. So the community really helped. And it was also so important because a lot of the work is about peer feedback. So my students do the writing and then share it with each other and give feedback to each other.
Ari Iny: Hello and welcome to Course Lab, the show that teaches creators like you how to make better online courses. I’m Ari Iny, the director of growth at Mirasee, and I’m here with my co-host, Abe Crystal, the co-founder of Ruzuku.
Abe Crystal: Hey, Ari.
Ari: In each episode of Course Lab, we showcase a course and creator who is doing something really interesting, either with the architecture of their course, the business model behind it, or both. Today, we welcome Susan O’Connor back to the show. Susan is the founder and owner of The Narrative Department. She was our first guest on Course Lab where she talked about her multifaceted course, Game Writing Masterclass. Now, she’s back and we want to dive into what has happened since. Welcome back, Susan.
Susan: Thanks. Happy to be here.
Ari: So to kick us off, for those who haven’t listened to the previous episode you were featured on, could you give us a 30,000-foot view of who you are, what you do, how you support people, and how you came to online courses?
Susan: Sure. So, for many years I was a writer for video games, which often catches people by surprise. The reaction I usually got was like, is that a job? Yes, it’s a job. I really got in early days. I worked on a lot of big franchises back in the day, like the BioShock franchise, Far Cry, Tomb Raider. I had a chance to work on some big AAA titles and it was a pretty incredible career and I loved it. I got to the point where I just thought, gosh, I’ve learned so much the hard way and I’ve sort of graduated from this work. I think I’m ready for something else. But what? And one thing led to another. I found Mirasee.
Actually, before that even, I had a friend of mine here in town. I’m here in Austin, Texas, and a colleague taught a course in game writing at the University of Texas at Austin. And he called me in July and he goes, hey, I’m teaching a class this fall. It starts August 15. I’m too busy to do it. Could you just pinch hit? I said the dumbest thing I’ve ever said, which is, how hard can it be? So I took it on. I totally struggled but I also discovered that I love teaching and that really surprised me. I thought maybe I should do some teaching.
And I enjoyed being an adjunct professor, but I was teaching college kids and I really wanted to reach professionals. I wanted to find working writers and working game writers who I knew I could really help. One thing led to another, I found Mirasee, and through partnering with you guys, I was able to get my masterclass up and running. And it’s just been an incredible experience.
Ari: Awesome. And for anyone listening, I do recommend you go and listen to the original episode with Susan, where she talks a lot about her experiences up to that point and pieces around the community, she’s been able to build around her program. So now, Susan, I’d like us to catch up on what happened over the past couple of years. How have things evolved for you since you’re piloting and the full course that you’ve had around the Game Writing Masterclass? And where are things at now for you?
Susan: Yeah, well, first I had to run it a few times to believe it. I mean, I think the first time I ran it, I was like, that was a fluke. I found fantastic students. They had a wonderful experience. And I’m like, that’ll never happen again. I had to learn that, yeah, it’s actually replicable and that this is a topic that people are excited about, that I can find these students and that I can really deliver something of value to them. That was the most important thing to me. I wanted people to get to the end of the class and be like, I’m so glad I took that. That to me was the real mark of success.
I was running the class and it was going really well. I was getting into a rhythm. I was offering it twice a year with every time I offered it, more students were joining the alumni community. That became a really important part of it. One of the biggest surprises for me, in retrospect, not, but at the time it surprised me, was the level of involvement the students had, not just with the class or with me, but with each other. My audiences, people in their twenties and thirties who are extremely online, love storytelling and video games. Getting them to engage on things like Slack was no problem. They wouldn’t stop engaging on slack and very involved in my ask me anything sessions and hit it off with each other because they had that thing that you guys talk about in Mirasee of uncommon commonalities.
It’s very unusual to find someone that loves storytelling and loves games. It’s usually one or the other. So when these people found each other, it was love at first sight. So the community really helped. And it was also so important because a lot of the work is about peer feedback. So my students do the writing and then share it with each other and give feedback to each other. So the fact that they were really copacetic was important. So as the masterclass was growing, the communities stuck around. We have them in our alumni discord and they stay involved and they just want to learn more and get more out of it. They just love The Narrative Department.
And so I’ve really let the company grow organically. I really have listened to what the students want and then thought, okay, how can I give it to them? So that kind of goes in two directions. One is community and one is education. So the community part, I was doing things like, you know, at our industry conference, I was hosting picnics, you know, catered picnics to bring all of my different classes together so they could meet each other, spend time in person. We’re always looking for ways to do community events, hiring mods for the Discord, making it a curated community so that the community felt safe and people weren’t acting out and being jerks, which sometimes happens.
So putting time and energy into cultivating and supporting that community, finding ways for them to get connected. In terms of education, it started with one off workshop that I would run, like three-hour workshops. Eventually, it became clear that masterclass one really laid the fundamentals down, and there’s a place for that. But once people had mastered the fundamentals, they were ready to really talk shop. And so then I was like, I think I’m ready to build masterclass two. And I think that I’ve got this stable of students who are ready to take it.
So really setting up that prereq of, like, you have to have taken class one in order to take class two. Just really meeting the students where they’re at each stage and really listening to them, it’s just been like, it sounds so simple, but, like, everything has gone well if I stuck to those principles. So I’m very grateful for the growth I’ve had. I mean, this fall, I will be crossing that magical million-dollar mark in terms of, like, lifetime revenue.
Ari: That’s awesome. Congratulations.
Susan: Well, Ari, you were my coach. You know what a struggle it’s been. So it’s amazing to be here. I can’t believe it.
Ari: I’m not surprised, but it’s awesome. So you were saying that you hired mods for the Discord community channel and that’s for the alumni, is that right? So you’re investing in keeping community alive for the alumni.
Susan: Right, right. And that does not tie to revenue. Like, that’s just a pure cost, but it’s really important. It’s an important investment in the community, especially because the ultimate goal is to create that virtuous cycle of, you know, students come to the narrative department, they hone their skills, they get jobs in the industry at studios. The studios are really psyched about it and send more people to The Narrative Department. Like, I think there’s a way of helping everybody involved. I found a way to help the writers, and I also want to help the studios find the talent they need.
And so having this community that stays in touch with each other and is robust and is always on this process of learning and sharing work, even amongst themselves, without me, is great, because then we’ve got this great community of writers that the industry can tap into. And these writers really support each other in their job searches and career development. They help each other land jobs, they support each other getting their promotions and things like that. Like, it’s a really open-hearted group.
And so, yeah, investing in that community, because at first, we just opened a Discord and just was like, have fun. And that worked until it didn’t. And it just takes one person. I’ve only had to eject one person out of the 400 plus people in our group, but that one person was ruining it for everybody. That’s just part of the growth of this, learning how to be a leader in that sense. You’re safe here. We’re looking out for you. It’s money well spent to have those mods in there, curating, keeping an eye on things, making sure everything’s working well.
Ari: And I would guess that part of your alumni then went on to buy Masterclass, too, for instance. And you heard about the need from them as well?
Susan: I don’t do things unless they tell me they want it. That’s the great thing about having an engaged, motivated group that loves being a graduate of the TND, The Narrative Department. How can I keep helping you? What would be useful? For example, even now, I’m already thinking about they often have questions about game design. I don’t know anything about game design, but classes about game design are oriented towards game designers, so they’re kind of talking at a level that’s too high.
Game writers need a different level of information from game designers. They want to know how to collaborate with the people who design the games. They really want to know more about it, and I can’t help them. So I found somebody just in the last week, actually, and we are going to get into a partnership where he’s a really experienced game designer and a great teacher. He’s going to come in and I’m going to build a game designed for writers’ course around him, bringing in industry experts to build out the portfolio, build out my offerings and help writers in lots of different ways. And again, it’s really about what they want.
Ari: Awesome. Abe, do you have any questions?
Abe: I guess I’m curious to hear more about like how you think about positioning what you’re offering because it sounds like a lot of the value for people is in the community that’s connecting them to peers, but also to opportunities for professional growth. But something we often hear is that it’s difficult to sell community
Susan: Right.
Abe: Or you can only sell it in the context of other things or once people have gone on some type of journey with you. So just curious what your experience is with that have been and where you see that going forward. Are you trying to sell people on the idea of training and you’re going to get these concrete outcomes if you go through my program? Are you trying to sell them on the idea of community connection? What was that balance for you?
Susan: I think it’s that classic case of sell them what they want and give them what they need. Creative people desperately need to be in community and often are not to the point where they just feel like, well, I don’t really need community. I’m just an oddball weirdo. And that’s just how it is. If I was trying to sell that, I think it would be a hard sell because they would be like, sure, lady. But what I can offer is training that is hard to find on a topic that is new and exciting and emerging.
I really do focus on like, I will teach you the easy way what I had to learn the hard way, and I’m going to teach you what other books and classes don’t because I was a working game writer, everything I teach in this class is hard won industry knowledge, super practical. I think there’s a real appeal to that. It’s got a very specific outcome. What I promise is that this course will fast track your game writing career by giving you the tools, knowledge and support.
The thing that we lead with is you’re going to come out of here really understanding game writing. You’re going to come out with a set of writing samples that’ll be great for your portfolio. You’re going to get training, live training weekly with me where you can ask me anything and we have co working sessions. A lot of things around, getting better at a thing that ties to your career. That’s the appeal. That’s the reason why people say, yes, I’ll sign up.
And then through the process of going through the course, it starts with all eyes on me, but slowly they start to notice each other. I work really hard creating that sense of warmth and welcome in my class. When you sign up for class, we have intake calls with me, small group chit chats. It’s 15 minutes. The real reason for it is just to kind of make eye contact, get to know them a little bit, and get them to see the cut of my jib and, like, you’re in a good place here. I’m just like you, except I’m just older, you know, like, really want to lower the anxiety level for these people so they don’t walk into a zoom room on day one with 30 strange faces looking back at them.
The people in their small group are in there, so they’ve had a chance to meet a few fellow students. We do a lot to slowly but surely bring them into the room, bring them into the party, and then eventually, there comes a tipping point. Once the memes start flying on Slack and they start playing games together because they love games. That’s such an icebreaker. They’ll just, what are you playing this week? I mean, that’s all you have to say, and then just step back.
By the end of the class, they almost want to push me out of the way so I can get to each other. So it’s not something I sell, but it’s something I deliver. I really think it’s incredibly important because one of the best things that people can get out of this class, I want them to have confidence. I want them to believe they can do this and that they don’t have to be perfect, they just have to be willing because it’s creative work. There’s no such thing as perfect.
But yes, you can do this, and you’re going to do it with each other. I actually think a lot about that proverb, to go fast, go alone, to go far, go together. I mean, I really have taken that to heart, and that’s really what this class is about. And I’ve seen my students go on to break into the industry and rise to the ranks of the industry, and they’re doing it through supporting each other. So that proverb is true.
Abe: A lot of people have that ambition to have that type of community. Do you have any thoughts on what’s making it work for you? Or what are some of the things that people should be trying, you know?
Susan: Yeah, well, I think a big part of it is my audience. They’re in their twenties and thirties. They don’t have families yet. They’re very socially oriented. They want to hang out with people their own age. Their social needs get met through their peers. And so I think that’s kind of baked in. Like, I think having to look at your audience and like, do they engage online at all? Like, how do they like to engage? These people are extremely online. Chatting on Slack feels just as warm as being a person over a cup of coffee.
There’s no barrier to entry there. You know, they’re happy to do it. You know, they’re all about the jokes. So I think that’s part of it. I think the uncommon commonalities is something that any course creator can lean into regardless of who their audience is, because they are probably focusing on some kind of niche. And if it’s a niche that maybe students don’t always get a chance to go deep on or explore, they’ve got this built in a community of people who are interested in the same thing they are. That’s one of the ways that we make friends is not by looking at each other. It’s by standing side by side looking at something we both love.
So you start by focusing on a thing you love and then you kind of notice each other, Oh, you like the same stuff I do. One of the things we do in the class, for example, we’ll get into breakout groups on the first day and everyone’s horrified when I say that. I can see their eyes just bug out and I give them a script and I’m like, say your name, where you are and what you’re playing this week. What game are you playing right now? And if you’re not playing anything, what did you last finish or what do you want to play? Because the game you choose to play says a lot about who you are, right?
And of course, inevitably they’re playing something that just came out and someone else in the group is like, I’m playing that, too. Oh my God. You know, and they come back from these breakout rooms, they’re still talking, and then they’re in the chat the whole time. I’m trying to teach going nuts with each other. I encourage that. I just close the chat because it distracts me. But I’m like, this is not high school. You can pass notes all you want here. Please chat with each other. Make fun of me. I don’t care.
And also, I have Tas. I think TAs are really important because they’ve got the bandwidth to be available to the students in ways that I just can’t. So I think having that structure of support, you know, and the TAs know their number one job is to shepherd, watch for the ones that aren’t showing up to class, reach out to them, get on Slack, and post some discussion prompts. Share what you’re playing. Because all of my TAs are former students. They’ve been through this experience. They love this experience, and they want to recreate it for my other students. So again, it’s a virtuous cycle.
Ari: So I’m going to assume a lot has changed for masterclass one between last time you were on the show and this time. What are the things that are new in the program? Community was always a part of it. Were TAs always a part of it? Were you doing it all on your own? What’s changed? What have you learned in order to make it better that is worth thinking about also for others?
Susan: Well, I guess there are two things I would say. One is probably not relevant to everybody, and then the second one probably is more relevant to everybody. So the less relevant one is that I’m working in a niche or an arena that is up and coming. So as an industry, I’m talking about video games, we’re still learning how to tell stories in games. The example I always use is, you know, it’s like being a screenwriter in the 1920s, and it’s like, okay, we’ve got these cool gadgets and we can film things. I don’t even know what that even means. How do we do this? Make a movie thing, you know? And slowly a vocabulary emerged, and the art medium came into its own eventually.
And that’s what’s happening with games. These students are really on the cutting edge. They’re the next generation making these huge breakthroughs in what’s possible when it comes to storytelling in games. And so I want to keep updating this course because I’m learning how to explain things better. I’m becoming a better teacher. The industry is having all kinds of breakthroughs that I want to reflect in the class. So that’s something that maybe is, again, more geared towards people who are trying to teach a difficult topic. It’s a chance to be a real leader in that sense.
And then the other one is tied to education and communities. One of the things that we are doing now that I think is really valuable, because what we’ve done in the past is we’ve just talked about games and that’s always been a struggle. It’s like, is this really landing? Are you getting what I’m talking about here? I know what I’m talking about, but I’m an expert. Do you know what I’m talking about is the question. Just this past round we did something new where we invited back some of our best and brightest graduates to talk about a recent game, they love that is an example of a concept I’m teaching in the course.
So there would be a lecture where I’ll be talking about characters and then the next video would be of the game. It’s gameplay footage, but then our student is doing the voiceover saying, hi, I’m so and so. And I graduated in spring of 22. And I’m here because I want to talk about fallout four, one of my all-time favorite games. And it’s such a great example of topic Susan just talked about. I wasn’t involved in this process at all. Just tell us what you see. That’s been incredibly useful for a couple different reasons.
One, it’s that whole cliche about the person most qualified to teach a second grader, math is a fourth grader. These concepts are new and fresh enough for my students that they can really help explain it clearly to someone versus me, I’ve been doing it for 20 years. Duh. You know, like the curse of knowledge is real. It really helps make sure that concepts land, examples always help. It’s also aspirational because it is showing the current students, past students who now are working at studios, who have gone on to build their careers. And it’s like, look, if they did it, you can, too.
We never say that outright, but it strengthens that sense of community. It’s almost like being in college where you go to the alumni weekend and you see all these students from different years on different points in their careers. Some are really far ahead of you and some are close to you, but you’re all potentially on the same path and you’re all connected. So it works on lots of different levels. I’m really glad we’re doing it.
Ari: That’s really cool. One more question I have is around something that you mentioned at the very start. Part of the way that you provide support or help people help each other is you have structures of peer feedback. Could you tell us a little bit more about that? How it works within your own program, how you’ve implemented it?
Susan: Yeah, and in fact, I’ll tell you about it and then how we improved it. The thing that writers want is feedback on their work. And when I first started doing this, I was like, sure, I’ll give feedback. And the reason I said that is because I can’t do math. If you’ve got 60 students doing two exercises a week for six weeks, how many reviews is that? I quickly figured out I had made a big mistake. So then I thought, well, I get that they want it. What do I do? And that’s where the idea of peer feedback came in.
So we set up a structure where each cohort only has 30 students. Again, community. If it’s 100 people, everyone’s a stranger. So we have multiple cohorts. Even if I have 90 students that register, or 120, as far as the students are concerned, there’s only 30 because we put them in different pods that meet on different days, have different Slack channels, et cetera. And then within that class of 30, we then sort them into houses, Hogwarts style. They have kind of a home base; they have their own Slack channel. And that’s like eight people or so in that house. And so the buddies come from your house.
You get a different buddy every week because I think it’s important to not have the same buddies through the whole class. You need a variety of perspectives. Sometimes the dynamics aren’t great, but if it’s not great for one week, it’s fine, you just move on. But by and large, they all work really well together, and then they have exercises, not assignments. And we include feedback guidelines.
So let’s say, Ari, you and I are buddies. We have a writing assignment. Write a character bio, do on Wednesday. I send you mine, you give me yours, and then we have until Friday to leave feedback on each other’s work. When the next module opens up, you get a new buddy pairing. So it’s rinse and repeat through the whole course. And it’s been really great. It’s not necessarily the quality of the feedback that’s great. It’s the practice of showing your work on a regular basis, because I think a lot of writers get precious with their work and, like, don’t look perfect.
I’m like, well, guess what? It’s never going to be perfect. Give it to me. And we also bumped up against what I think is probably a predictable problem, which is some people like this is peer feedback, but they don’t know anything. I want more guidance. I want somebody who really knows what they’re talking about to look at my stuff. So we came up with the idea of a pro tier. And so what I did, I reached out again, TND alumni, but people who were now officially working game writers. They were in the industry working on games at studios, so they had the credibility.
We brought them on in paid positions to be pro readers. And so if people paid for the pro tier level, they would get one of the professionals to read their work and give them really thoughtful, in depth feedback every week. They would get to work with a different pro reader every week, just like they cycle through peers. So if you did pro tier, you also had peer feedback. So you’re getting it from lots of different directions. That has been really, really incredible, I have to say like, when we first did it, every time I do something new, I’m just like, well, we’ll see. I’ve learned not to expect perfection. I’m just like, this could blow up in our faces or it could be great. Let’s try it and see.
And the pro reader thing has been the easiest and most successful thing we have ever done. I didn’t have to do anything. I just got out of their way. The pro readers were graduates of TND. They knew exactly where these students were coming from. They were dedicated. I mean, it’s a paid position, but they were going above and beyond. There was a labor of love. This was writers helping writers. I just want to cry thinking about it. We have the best people in TND. So, yeah, I think we have found a way. Leveraging community and a rising tide really lifts all boats through community. We’re getting the expertise that our students need, which is amazing.
Ari: So one question on that, though is, I mean, as you mentioned, and this is what came up for them as well. Okay. This other person, I don’t know anything. They don’t know anything either. Has there ever been an issue of or were you ever concerned about bad feedback?
Susan: Yes. And this is where being a good leader comes in. I mean, we set some pretty stringent guidelines up front. One is if you miss a deadline, either by submitting your homework or submitting your feedback, if you miss it, you’re out of the pool. Full stop, no excuses. You’re done. And I tell them up front, this is not to be punitive. I do this because when people miss deadlines, they are swamped with life and overwhelmed.
If they can’t meet the deadline, it’s okay. You’re still going to get a lot out of the class. You can still do all the exercises. But we don’t want to be letting other students down. If you don’t do your part, someone else isn’t getting the feedback they want. Some people miss it. Every time we run it, a couple people are out of the pool and they don’t complain. They didn’t do the work. Those are the rules. If someone gives like, not great feedback, the TAs will step in and be like, you can’t just leave two great job comments. That’s not feedback.
Having eyes on their homework and seeing it is helpful. And I think also something I’m going to implement is a lesson on how to give and receive feedback with examples of like, this is what good feedback looks like, this is what bad feedback looks like. Because I think that’s going to help solve some of those problems, too. It’s always a crapshoot because you’re dealing with people and stuff happens. But by and large, the social component of it really keeps people on track. People do not want to be that person in class who doesn’t pull their weight. So I don’t have to say too much, you know, the social pressure kind of does the work for me.
Ari: Awesome. Abe, any more questions?
Abe: No, that was great. Thank you.
Ari: So before we wrap up, is there any parting wisdom that you want to provide to the listeners?
Susan: I guess I would say it’s going to be just as hard as you think it is. Maybe harder, but it’s so worth it. When I was seeing that number of reaching that million-dollar mark, the thing about it that made me feel so good was not the number, but just thinking, God, I made that money doing work I am proud of that I love that helps other people. That’s an amazing way to make money. So hard work, but worth it.
Ari: And then my last question is, where can our audience go to learn more about you and your program?
Susan: Yes, people are welcome to check out our website. It’s thenarrativedepartment.com. I have a blog on there and I offer lots of free resources, even for people who never take my classes. So if people are curious about it and want to learn more, you can find me there. Thenarrativedepartment.com.
Ari: Awesome, Susan. Thank you so, so much. This has been awesome.
Susan: Good talking with you guys. Thanks again.
Ari: All right, Abe.
Abe: Susan O’Connor is an award-winning game writer who has worked on over 25 projects, including titles in the Bioshock, Far Cry and tomb Raider franchises. She founded The Narrative Department and teaches creatives how to write great stories for great games. Learn more about her program at thenarrativedepartment.com. That’s thenarrativedepartment.com. You’ll find the link in the show notes.
Danny Iny: Now stick around for my favorite part of the show where Abe and Ari will pull out the best takeaways for you to apply to your course.
Abe: Alright, Ari, it’s time for the debrief for kind of a very unique and unusual course in some ways.
Ari: Yeah. Obviously, this is a niche that many people probably wouldn’t relate to necessarily, but I think there’s still a lot to learn. I feel like almost all the lessons that I took away from this conversation have to do with community and how much it can support the business and lead to everything else that happens within the business.
Abe: Yeah, the big takeaway for me was turning community into a flywheel. It’s not unique. There are other people doing this, but the depth with which Susan is doing it and the results are unusual. And it’s this flow from having people go through her program where they uplevel their skills and then they’re actually applying those in a particular industry that then changes their professional trajectory and then they are continuing to contribute back to the community and they’re returning and helping the next generation of people after them go through that same process which then kind of builds on itself. Seeing that whole lifecycle work is pretty distinctive.
Ari: And I really do think the audience for Susan is more excited to build a community. I think they’re more drawn to this sense of community. And at the same time, for most course creators, I believe that there is definitely a possibility there because any course that you’re delivering creates some kind of transformation for someone and they would be excited about that transformation hopefully, if it’s something worthwhile for them. And if done well, they will be excited about sharing that and potentially supporting others and possibly being part of community as well. Again, not for every niche, absolutely. But I think it can be tried in many more places than it currently is.
Abe: Yeah, I mean, to some extent you have to build a critical mass, right? Like you have to get enough people into your program and they have to be highly engaged for this to be possible.
Ari: And I think that highly engaged part is the really important piece.
Abe: Yeah, I do agree that this can work in other areas and a model that course creators should be looking very closely at. I think it also raises the broader issue that we should be thinking about ways to create courses that lead to professional development and to improvements in people’s professional trajectory. I think that’s one of the reasons this is so successful. It’s not just that the course is engaging, it’s that it makes a difference for people’s actual career.
In other course domains that might not be a career in a defined industry like game development, it might actually be like you’re becoming more successful as an entrepreneur or as a small business owner in some area, that could be another way that your career develops. In general, if you think about shifts in the economy, we’ve gone from a period of COVID and zero interest rates where people might take a course just because it sounded cool. Right? And they had money lying around to a time where more people are evaluating courses and services and other offerings based on ROI. Right? Like, is this actually going to help me grow my business? If that’s the promise, is it going to help me advancing my career? So reorienting course design and offers around that path and promise could be really powerful.
Ari: And then once that’s done, and the people who are members of it are engaging, and if you are able to build that community, there’s so much opportunity that comes out of that.
Abe: This model is not new. Right? We see this model, for example, in traditional business schools, getting an MBA and then you’re part of a community, and then you come back to your school and you recruit students into your company. It’s, you know, applying that same flywheel to online courses is still very, very underutilized. I hardly see anyone doing this.
Ari: Yeah. And I think course creators might say that, well, I don’t have the level of or the amount of people coming in that, you know, this giant school has or Susan has. She said, you know, multiple hundred people have gone through her classes. But I mean, a couple years ago, when she had the conversation on this show before, she was at the beginning of her journey, and that community engagement was there even when it was a cohort of 20 people or so to start. So don’t prevent yourself from attempting it because you feel like you don’t have a large enough community. It’s about the depth of engagement. Even with a small community that can start that flywheel turning, potentially.
Abe: That makes sense.
Ari: All right, that’s it for me.
Abe: All right. Susan O’Connor is an award-winning game writer who founded The Narrative Department and teaches creatives how to write great stories for great games. Learn more about her program at thenarrativedepartment.com. That’s thenarrativedepartment.com. You’ll find the link in the show notes.
Thank you for listening to Course Lab. I’m Abe Crystal, co-founder and CEO of Ruzuku, here with my co-host Ari Iny. Course Lab is part of the Mirasee FM podcast Network, which also includes such shows as Just Between Coaches and Making It. If you don’t want to miss the excellent episodes coming up on Course Lab, follow us on YouTube or wherever you listen to your favorite podcasts. Are you enjoying the show? Go ahead and leave us a starred review. It really does make a difference. Thank you, and we’ll see you next time.
All right, Ari, who have we got coming on for the next episode?
Ari: Next time, we have Paul Perez. He’s a skilled, combat tested executive and leadership coach, organizational trainer, consultant, and cultural transformation expert. He uses a four-part process to identify and rectify the issues in an organization. And the course he’s creating is the fourth part of that process, which is what we’ll dig into.
Abe: That sounds great.
Ari: Yeah, I’m really looking forward to it.