Course Lab – Episode 120
How Smart Course Creators Tackle “Divisive” Topics (Laura Lomax)
Abe Crystal: The real power is scooping that to very concrete scenarios like, hey, I’m going to help police officers with this problem, or I’m going to work with people who work in prisons with this problem. And having that really tailored focus is very different than just having this broad expertise.
Ari Iny: Hello and welcome to Course Lab, the show that teaches creators like you how to make better online courses. I’m Ari Iny, the director of growth at Mirasee, and I’m here with my co host Abe Crystal, the co founder of Ruzuku.
Abe: Hey there, Ari.
Ari: In each episode of Course Lab, we showcase a course and creator who is doing something really interesting either with the architecture of their course, the business model behind it, or both. Today we’re joined by Laura Lomax. She’s an expert in intercultural competency, instructional design and leadership with over 35 years of experience. From running a healthcare management firm to training thousands across industries like law enforcement, education and corporate leadership, Laura has dedicated her career to bridging cultural gaps and fostering meaningful inclusion. Laura, welcome to Course Lab.
Laura: Thank you so much. Appreciate it.
Ari: Could you give us a 30,000 foot view of yourself, how you’ve come to where you are now and how you’ve come to the world of online courses?
Laura: I have a long career in program development. My first program was for a central holding facility in Philadelphia that fed into the prison. So it was a very complex situation and myself and my colleagues came in and created a solution and that was my first program many years ago. Most of my career was in healthcare. I remember the nightmare of trying to have electronic records, which is just like everybody has a tablet now. Everybody has electronic records. But it was a very different world back then. I was the CEO of the company that provided health services and correctional facilities around the US. I always focused on training and learning and inclusion. Didn’t call it that inclusion back then, but it was called management by walking around or decentralized management. But it really is the same mindset and skillset.
Most of my career was spent doing programs in correctional facilities across the U.S. we were in about 30 facilities, including the state of Georgia. I had a management structure that was decentralized, but training and inclusion, in terms of the mission statement, in terms of everybody understanding the value. So I was always inclusive. Then we sold our company like 20 years into it. I became a solopreneur and I worked in environmental development. But eventually, I ended up working for a nonprofit. My husband was sick. We were actually living in Israel and we came back and he had to change jobs. I had to change my work. So I ended up working for a nonprofit and I created a program related to diversity, equity and inclusion. That was in 2014, and we didn’t necessarily call it that. It was cultural competence.
But then in 2020, this wave of DEI came and it left. As we know, I’ve always believed in meeting my learners where they are. So I adapted. And I actually, in 2020, when I really got into the cultural competency part of it, I realized there was a little divisiveness around the idea of DEI. I would tell my classes, even then, diversity is just a reality. It’s not like something you have to like or not like. It’s just the demographics of our country is changing. So I got involved in course creation. When I saw the Ruzuku program, I was doing some virtual training via Zoom, some in person training. My training includes an assessment and then creating workshops that are based on the areas for improvement.
But when I saw the Ruzuku program, I was like, you know what? I could really utilize something like that in my courses. Of course, the pandemic really changed everybody’s way of working. I think some people are sort of going back a little bit, but not completely. I don’t think anybody will ever go back to totally in-person training. I did a lot of training with police departments and with government agencies, correctional facilities, and healthcare. My first courses were for the police department and I was able to get them accredited so their officers can get continuing law enforcement education credits. Same with attorneys, they can get continuing legal education credits.
And right now, even over the last four or five years, those accreditation processes, those continuing ed courses, all self paced, all online. No more running to the lawyer’s office. It’s all required that it’s self-paced. I can record myself, but it’s not live. I do add live components still because the type of work that I do in terms of emotional intelligence, cultural competence, practicing unbiased reasoning, learning, discernment, you need that interaction. I’ve tried to do it without adding a meeting, but you need that interaction. So that brings me to where I am today, and I’m doing a lot of online workshops. .
I use the Ruzuku platform not just for the courses, but also for the products. Now for the ebooks, I find there’s certain topics that people just need to do privately almost. So I created an ebook called Face Race because I never talk about it in my training, really because it’s so sensitive. But I wanted to create something for people that they can just read it and really understand, you know, from different perspectives in your own space. So that’s where I am now. And I use Ruzuku. I use the platform not just for training, but I also use it for staging. When I do in-person material, for getting all my material organized, my downloadables, my handouts, I use it for myself. So it’s really been a great tool for me.
Ari: Awesome. So I have a few different directions of questioning and we’ll go down them one at a time. My first question is the organizations that you work with might feel impenetrable and difficult to get in, and I know that you have history there. I’m curious as to your process when approaching an organization for the first time. If you’re trying to get your courses into an organization, how do you go about that? What’s the recommendation that you would have for someone who’s at an earlier point in their career if they’re able to get in with one of these, you know, government agencies or large organizations, that can be amazing, but they might often be intimidated by that.
Laura: Well, you know, I did get involved before the online world was really happening. So some of those relationships preceded the online materials. I talked to them about it and I got their insight and their input. I shared, you know, starting with the sales page, which always wows people. The whole process is sort of user-friendly and it really does engage people. Of course the material has to be engaging, so it has to be, in my opinion, beautiful, grammatically correct, and really relate to your audience. The course that I create and the material that I create, reaching out to police officers is not going to be the same that I use for doctors or nurses. I generally talk to them, get their feedback, and then customize based on their specific department.
I do have standard material, but I always tweak it and tailor it to the specific client, which is easy to do. I talk to them and then I introduce them to the platform. Now, of course, I have the instructions how to use it. I’m always available, accessible via the chat or email, but I usually talk to people and let them get comfortable with the idea. The Zooms are really important in this kind of work because people want to have you, they want to ask questions, they want to collaborate with their colleagues. And I think it’s really important. The sales page, the welcome letter, these things, you can use the template, but I like to customize and really make it engaging for that particular client.
Ari: And so the courses that you’re currently delivering, it sounds like you have multiple different courses. Have the topics shifted over the years with what is happening currently in the US? I know there is a bit of a backlash against DEI i and the content that you’re teaching is adjacent. I mean, you said, you know, we never called it that, but it’s kind of what it was.
Laura: Well, we did call it that.
Ari: Okay. Like during when there was the hype. So…
Laura: Yeah, early. Before 2020. Yeah.
Ari: So my question is, what is your process and thought process around adapting the way you’re talking about what you teach to meet with current demands and the current situation?
Laura: As I said before, diversity, equity, inclusion was sort of narrow, so I broadened it to workforce learning and development. I worked with a client that was in such a conservative area, and so we created a campaign about kindness and belonging. We used the word inclusion a lot, but unfortunately, diversity, equity, even the word culture, was a little triggering. So we were just really mindful and kept it so that everybody felt they could participate in the trainings as well.
If you’re conservative, you know, if you don’t like certain types of people, it doesn’t matter. This idea of intercultural is between groups, not just about ethnicity or age or religion. But I always give you an example of the marketing department and the accounting department. There’s this bias that goes on. There’s this tension. So I try to make it relatable to everybody.
Ari: This is super helpful around how you think about approaching organizations, people who might, depending on how you frame what you are delivering, be interested or not interested based on the packaging and t tailoring the packaging so that people are really interested. But do you approach it differently when the elements are more divisive?
Laura: I try to have a relaxed atmosphere. I try to keep people engaged. I don’t go right into divisive topics. We sort of ease our way. And I talk a lot about storytelling as a way to connect to people. And it brings people to have this like a common denominator. But the big thing is that people need to understand the differences with people. People think you connect based on what you have in common, but it is understanding differences where you can really connect. My material is research based. I don’t use popular culture things. It’s all based on research and communication styles and body language. Verbal communication is like 7%. The rest is eye contact. And that’s all different based on your cultural background.
I try to make it practical. For example, police officers, they’re. They can be challenging. They’re fun, though. They have a good sense of humor. They’re tough. They don’t want to hear a lot of, you know, this. I hate to say it, this woke stuff. One of the best compliments I got was that now when they go to a call, a domestic issue or something, they think about what that other person might be thinking and not just what they have to do, which is like huge. I mean, that was just a big thing for me. So make it relatable. Make it so that everybody can feel they can participate. Some of the most interesting and sharing people have been correctional officers or police officers. And that’s, you know, that’s my challenge to go in with without biases, you know, to go in to understand the learner. But don’t go in with these preconceived notions that because someone looks like, you know, super cop, that they’re, you know, prejudice or they’re limited or they’re whatever.
I’m always surprised by that. But my very first thing that I do with clients is an assessment by the Intercultural Development Inventory. And it really looks at how do people relate to difference? How do you engage with people that are different? It’s not about race, it’s not about gender, it’s not about sexual orientation. It’s just difference. It’s been successful. I got slammed with the DEI by a school board. When this thing first started. I was shocked because everybody was so nice. We worked together. It was like 30 of us, teachers, administrators, students, parents. But when the turn happened, people had to sort of make their decision, you know, sort of take their position.
I was very disappointed. I was shocked. I work with adult learners most of the time now versus K through 12. It showed me there’s a whole bunch of people that felt alienated. So I tried to broaden it a little bit. The idea of equity was always like a poke in somebody’s eye, even though I get it. But we made it more about inclusion and most people understood that and could relate to that.
Ari: Thank you. So I have a question about a completely different topic. But before I go there, Abe, I don’t know if there’s anything more along this path that you’d like to ask about.
Abe: I mean, do you want to elaborate on what has worked for you in terms of the online experience? I mean, like people listening to Course Lab, they’re interested in how do they connect with their learners and help them achieve outcomes, achieve transformations through their online programs. Based on your experience teaching these types of topics online, what have you learned about how to deliver them effectively online? Given that these are fairly nuanced topics, they’re emotional topics, and you don’t have access to an in person experience, what has been your approach then to teaching this online and what are some lessons learned you can share for other people looking to go in similar directions?
Laura: My courses have a similar format. You know, after the introduction and the how do you use the site. I have the content, a lecture type of thing. I will have a scenario, this is what happened, what would you do? Type of situation. Then I have quizzes, this is for every topic. And then I will have reflection prompt. The reflection is actually before the quiz. I think it has to be before the quiz. I keep my content maybe seven minutes or less, you know, per subject, a lot of examples. I definitely relate and use examples and terminology and experiences that the learner is familiar with. So it will grab them right away.
I would not use a hospital related subject scenario, for example, for police officers, you know, although they might get it, but it’s sort of alienating and it’s not rude, but it’s a little insensitive. So I make sure that everything is really connecting to the learner. The Zooms are really important with this type of material. You know, a forum for people to ask questions, express themselves, break out into smaller groups and have some interaction. The social learning part of it is really important. So often times I do not do the discussions. I have not done that.
In the process of doing a program for incarcerated learners, that might be a place where I maybe if the facility allows, it, has some dialogue, but the discussion is another area, another tool for interacting with people and each other. All of these are important because this is a social and emotional learning situation. But I also want people to understand there’s a lot of facts, theory and best practices that are shared. So be really sensitive about meeting your learners where they are and make sure you’re, you’re engaging. Have that zoom, have that meetings, I guess the chat be accessible if people have questions with this type of material.
Abe: Yeah, that’ll make sense. And sometimes people set up those types of features or opportunities to engage and they have trouble getting their participants to actually take those steps to fully participate and engage in the course. Is there anything that you’ve found that’s been especially effective in terms of getting people to actually really engage in the course as opposed to just kind of staying on the surface?
Laura: Many of my clients are organizations. I make sure that I work with the leadership or create a small steering committee so that people are encouraged, not necessarily mandated, but some are mandated to take the course when you have the opportunity to interact with them directly, either, you know, email or in person on a Zoom, it’s a good time to emphasize the importance of participation. But having their superiors, their leaders also aware and buying into what’s happening is also important. Now I create like a facilitator’s guide for the other people that are not necessarily the management level trainees.
So those people that are maybe a level above to understand that are not necessarily in the direct training, but how do they sustain those ideas and that training afterwards. That’s always a big thing. I really like the larger organization to be aware. It takes research and looking into what’s important to the organization, their projects, how do you connect with them, how can this be meaningful, and how do you ensure that they sustain and don’t just get the certificate at the end, which they love, by the way. But I like having some kind of mechanism. So I’ll follow up with people, maybe like a group forum, a manager’s forum, maybe a month later to get everybody like, you know, how’s it going? You know, et cetera. So again, that personal contact.
Ari: So now completely different direction. Part of the business model is that your programs are accredited. So people get continuing education credits within their profession as part of the programs that you deliver. So something that I’m curious about is from your experience, is that something that other course creators should be looking into, or would you advise that as a way to market or get their courses in front of these organizations? And as part of that? Because I’ve heard that having continuing education credits means you’re limited in price. There are certain expectations and there is the difficulty of getting it accredited and all that. So I’m just curious as to your thoughts of the pros and cons and what would be your recommendation?
Laura: I think it’s definitely a pro to have outside validation in the particular area where your clients are. Plus these continuing ed is mandated. The key is though, doing a good marketing job to get people to look at that list of a thousand courses they can choose from to stand out. So that’s key as well. But I think the accreditation, it’s huge. I put my little certificate on my sales page. I think it’s a big plus and it’s surprisingly easy. Don’t be intimidated by the form. They’re looking for good courses.
Once you get it, the renewals are easy. Like I have Pennsylvania, but my intention is to get other states. Once you have Pennsylvania, it’s going to be easier. I think it’s a huge selling point and I don’t think it should be a deterrent. Now I just wanted to make it easier for my clients to not only take my course, but also get it extra, like a value add to the course.
Ari: Awesome. Yeah, that’s helpful. That’s exactly what I was looking for as far as the information. Thank you. Okay, great. Abe, any additional questions that you have?
Abe: Nothing big for me, just any other. Any other insights, ideas, hard won lessons learned that you think it would be good to share with other course creators?
Laura: Okay, lessons learned. One is lay out your material before you start uploading it. I mean, I personally like PowerPoint just because it gives me some freedom, but get it laid out before you upload it on the platform. It’s just more organized in terms of a process. That’s one. Secondly, make use of the office hours. Sometimes I don’t even have a question just to see what other people are asking. I find that really helpful. I find the support really helpful. Use that. I do use it a lot and I always get great responses. So get your content organized, get your images organized. I had a little stint using AI avatars, which I loved. I did a script and I select a beautiful avatar with an English accent.
My clients did not care for that. I had a couple mouth readers. One was a judge and he was just like, no, you can’t. And so I had to go back to the drawing board on that one. It was fun and I loved it, but it wasn’t connecting with the client. So I now do my own voice. I don’t use AI for everything, but when it comes to organization titles or bulleting a list, it’s a great tool. I think those are my lessons learned. Yeah.
Abe: That’s great. We appreciate it.
Ari: So before we wrap up, the last question I have for you is if people want to learn more about you and the work that you do, where can they find you?
Laura: Call me. No, My email is laura@interculturalworks.com. My courses are at courses.elearnersource.com.
Ari: And we’ll have all those links in the show notes so people can just click those links and get to where they’re trying to go.
Laura: Great. Thank you.
Ari: Laura, thank you so much for taking the time to be with us today and having this conversation.
Laura: Thank you so much.
Danny Iny: Now stick around for my favorite part of the show where Abe and Ari will pull out the best takeaways for you to apply to your course.
Abe: All right, Ari, it’s time for the debrief. What stout for you in Laura’s experience? She definitely has a kind of unique niche and is creating some courses with really unique topics. Really unique audience.
Ari: Yeah, absolutely. I think one of the things that really stood out to me is, yes, she has very unique audiences. And within these different agencies and whatnot, there are still a lot of different niches. And so just her approach of meeting learners where they’re at, so thinking about who her end user is and tailoring her content using the same content, but tailoring it for the different communities that she’s working with. You know, you can create your content, then reuse it with different audiences.
Abe: Yeah, well, it ties in the idea of just, I mean, it’s cliche, but the riches are in the niches or just the idea that there’s niches within niches within niches. Right? So, like, you might start by thinking about, oh, I have this expertise in intercultural communication and emotional intelligence, et cetera. But that’s very broad. And so you might narrow that down to, okay, I can help organizations with that. So that’s at least a little bit more focused. But where the real power is scoping that to very concrete scenarios like, hey, I’m going to help police officers with this problem, or, I’m going to work with people who work in prisons with this problem. And having that really tailored focus is very different than just having this broad expertise.
Ari: And it’s not just about the marketing. It’s also the content. She was talking about different situations where she tailored her approach to the content based on what she expected and what her experience has been with the people she’s working with, which is perfect. That’s how you get people to bring you in in the first place, but then bring you back.
Abe: See, I think that’s a good exercise or thought experiment for anyone working on a course. If you can’t say something as specific as Laura’s, like her training for police officers, try the exercise of what would it look like if it was that concrete for you? Who is your course for? It gets super concrete, super specific. You know, what would that look like? And it might open up some possibilities. I don’t know if I have much else. I mean, we covered the course engagement stuff, but nothing really jumped out at me there.
Ari: The only other thing that I think we’ve covered very few times in the past is the idea of continuing education credits, remembering that those exist and might be relevant to you as a marketing tool and a way to open additional markets worth examining for yourself and for your own niche.
Abe: Yeah. Make sure that you’re planning your course in a lightweight way that feels approachable and easy to manage for you before finalizing it and selling it. For her, that tool is PowerPoint. But for someone else it might be pen and paper. It might be an outlining tool like Workflowy, but like find what is going to feel very like light and natural and easy for you to use and play with course ideas. Otherwise you may get bogged down in the implementation before you’re ready.
Ari: That’s all I had.
Abe: All right. Laura Lomax is an expert in intercultural competency, instructional design and leadership. You can find out more about her at interculturalworks.com. That’s Intercultural Works dot com. Thank you for listening to Course Lab. I’m Abe Crystal, co founder and CEO for Ruzuku, here with my co host, Ari Iny. Course Lab is part of the Mirasee FM Podcast network, which also includes shows such as Making it and Just Between Coaches. If you want to hear more from Course Lab, follow us on YouTube or wherever you listen to your favorite podcasts. And of course, if you enjoy the show, we always appreciate a starred review. It really does make a difference. Thank you and we’ll see you next time.
Okay, Ari, who do we have coming on the show next time?
Ari: Next time. Kirsten Wojcik is coming to the show. Kirsten is a certified dog behavior consultant and the founder of Happy Dogs Behavior Consulting. She has tons of experience, 28 years as a dog professional, and I’m looking forward to talking to her as I have a dog myself. We’ll see what I’ll learn.
Abe: Sounds great.