Just Between Coaches – Episode 149
How Smart Coaches Attract Clients, Without the Guesswork (Suzanne Reilley)
Suzanne Riley: Actually, it’s a little bit of a mental shift for most coaches, but if they’re willing to make that shift, it makes things so much, so much easier. Like, I have sat in so many rooms of people, like, trying to figure out what their audience might want, and it’s essentially like a big guessing game.
Melinda Cohan: Ever wondered how to crack the code in your coaching business and finally break through those frustrating barriers? Today, we’re diving into the essential strategies that can help you unlock success and get unstuck in your coaching practice. I’m Melinda Cohan, and you’re listening to Just Between Coaches. I run a business called The Coaches Console, and we’re proud to have helped tens of thousands of coaches create profitable and thriving businesses. This is a podcast where we answer burning questions that newer coaches would love to ask a more experienced coach. Running a successful coaching business can feel like a complex puzzle, and many coaches hit a wall, wondering what is going wrong.
In this episode, we’ll uncover the key strategies you need to crack the business code, and my guest will share her insights and stories to help you move forward. Today, I’ve invited Suzanne Reilley to the show. Suzanne is a business coach, copy advisor, and marketing strategist that helps online business owners quickly assess the strengths and the pitfalls of their brand, or, if you’re a new business owner, how to build it right the first time.
Melinda: Welcome, Suzanne.
Suzanne: Thanks so much for having me.
Melinda: Melinda, I love this topic. This is what I’ve been doing for 20 years, and so I am thrilled to have you on the show. And before we dive in, would you mind sharing just a little bit of your background?
Suzanne: Sure. So I actually have a degree in science, and I got started with this whole industry as a personal trainer. I was well trained and great at what I did. And then I really wasn’t expecting this, but any job that I wanted to get, I had to get my own clients. So I started working in a gym. They gave me floor hours and a stack of agreement forms. And I had never taken a business course, marketing course, any kind of anything in that realm. And so it was a really uphill learning curve that I did figure out quite quickly and was able to book, I believe, 25 weekly sessions in two months just because I had to. But it was really uncomfortable.
And I met such great people, and I realized that this process did not have to be pushy or icky. It’s really just a process of there are people who needed help, and I had that ability to help them, and we made that connection, and it was wonderful. So I really just kept learning from there. And then I got to a point where I really enjoy creating marketing. I really enjoy helping to create that connection for other businesses. I’m self taught in the industry and you know, I’ve worked three years full time on a digital marketing team at coaching. Now I work for myself. And yeah.
Melinda: Before we get into this whole conversation, you said something that really stands out ‘cause it was my experience as well. You said the phrase well because I had to. Right. When you were talking about booking those 25 sessions and that was my experience as well is like I don’t have a choice, like this has to happen right now. And so for me, I don’t even think I would have gone out to start my own business if I had not had that because I had two phrase. So I want to talk about that for a second. When it comes to starting a business, I meet those kind of those two camps of people when we interact with them.
There’s the folks that are like, look, I gotta make this happen. And then there’s the folks that are like, wow, this is gonna be awesome and this would be really nice. What’s the difference in that mindset of oh, this is gonna be really awesome and this would be really nice and I really want to versus I have to do this. There’s not an option. Does that play a role in how we create success?
Suzanne: That is a great question. I think there are pros and cons to both. When you have to do it, sometimes that can stifle the results. Sometimes it’s the aggression that you need to push it forward into happening. So it’s pros and cons. But when things get really hard, people tend to tread water a little. There’s really no better or worse. But those are the things I’ve noticed that happen in those two spaces.
Melinda: Yeah, it really is a fine line like that I have to like this has to work because I had just been fired and I was like, okay, I’m not going to get another job. I was recently divorced, I had mortgage and bills. I had to really pay attention. So I didn’t tip over into the desperation category of things but just really stayed in that fiercely committed thing. But then the other side of it that I see in that, oh my gosh, this would be really nice or I would love this. What I see happens, like you said, not necessarily enough. It’s that state of ambivalence where they want it pretty bad, but not bad enough that when it gets tough, they’re like, maybe I’m not cut out for this.
We have to be careful. Between that desperation and ambivalence, whichever camp we find our footing in is really going to drive everything else that we’re going to talk about today. Whether you are forced like me having been fired or it’s just a conscious choice, maybe you left a job, maybe you’re start, whatever it is, to find that kind of commitment is a game changing experience when you’re starting a business.
Suzanne: Yeah, and I think that’s so important what you say about knowing yourself and what works best for you because some people wired to thrive under pressure, people really need more space. You know, I’ve done a great deal of personal development, just like work on my elf and my inner world. The one quality that I have seen with successful coaches and then, well, I that the people who are successful, they define what success means to them and they decide that they’re going to be successful. So it doesn’t matter the timeline or, you know, it can be stretched out, it can be less stressful, but they decide that they’re going to be successful with conviction and they will ask any question, climb over any obstacle, learn anything they need to learn, just keep taking steps till they get there. So I think stressful or not, that is an important quality.
Melinda: Yeah, that conviction that drives the commitment, Right? The commitment drives the conviction. They go hand in hand and they have to be present. One of the things I often say is having your own business is the best form of self help. Maybe next to being a parent. I’m not quite sure which one kind of takes the lead sometimes, but my goodness, if you don’t want to work on yourself, do not start on your own business.
Suzanne: I 100% agree. I’m not a parent so I can’t weigh in on that comparison. But it’s deep and rich and like crunchy at times. It is the personal growth journey of a lifetime.
Melinda: Yeah. Now it’s interesting because as coaches, you know, that’s what we do is we help people identify their goals, move forward, turn that into reality. I mean that’s the world that we live in. And I think one of the greatest questions as a business owner that we can ask ourselves is, who do I need to become? How do I need to show up? What do I need to think? What do I need to say? How do I need to act for those goals to be a reality? And that I think that’s also a significant part of laying a very strong foundation in creating success in your business is looking at, who do I need to be? How do I need to show up?
Suzanne: Definitely.
Melinda: Now, let’s talk about that crunchy part for a second. Sure. So a lot of coaches, you know, they have their enthusiasm, they go out and they get started, and they might have some great traction, and a lot of them, they’ll get stuck early on. And how can they start figuring out what’s holding them back? Maybe beyond some of the things that we’ve already started talking about?
Suzanne: Yeah. So I think there could be many approaches here, but I think one of the things that happens is we as coaches can be very passionate people, and we really want to help others. And so there’s just this, like, outpouring of passion and excitement and interest in wanting to connect with people. And that is a wonderful thing, and that can drive a big part of success. But also, there are these counterintuitive aspects of business and marketing that people don’t always expect.
And so they go out and they, you know, share their website or share their offer or start talking to people, and sometimes they make connections, and that’s perfect. I know people who sometimes just in great alignment and they just talk to people, and they do really well. So that’s perfect and absolutely celebrate that and I think other people sometimes get stuck with, say for example, their messaging can be a little bit too vague. So it isn’t as engaging with people, or they don’t understand the type of ideal client that they want to work with. They’re not speaking the customer’s language, or they’re stuck on how to price their services. I think people in all industries underestimate what it really takes for marketing and business to work.
Melinda: Yeah. And you listed three of those critical areas. Right. They’re messaging who they’re actually talking to, and, you know, how they price their services. All of that can lead to lack of engagement. It can lead to not feeling confident when you’re putting yourself out there. Those are three really key foundational aspects. And like you said, coaches are so passionate but it can also blind us at the same time. And we can only pursue our business from our passion. We have to put on the hat of the business owner and really learn about what does it mean to have a business, what are the areas that I need to look at? And so we’ve got to pay attention to those elements and those three elements that you listed, that’s putting on the business owner hat and saying, okay, what do I need to understand about this? How do I need to understand this? And what do I need to learn?
So why is it essential? Let’s look at one of those. Why is it essential to define the kind of person that you love working with early on in your business? Because I remember I’ll share this story really quick. Yeah, I was at this networking event, early days of my coaching business, and I swear this guy stood up and said, I can help anybody who breathes. And he was not joking. I’m like, that’s horrible. So if you’re listening in and you said that, alert, alert. Time to understand this a little deeper. So, Suzanne, why is it essential to define your ideal client early on?
Suzanne: Yeah, so I always recommend that people choose their ideal client. Like go beyond demographics. Think of the qualities of people who you love coaching or you love being around or who you would want to help or what that topic of conversation is, if it’s one in particular. And focus there and focus on people who are going to be as excited to find you as you are excited to find them, people who of course have the means to invest in your services. People who are going to be able to engage with what you do and have the time and the space, or they’ll carve that out to do the work. They get great results and then from there, they’re much more likely to tell their friends.
And so when you connect with people like that, man, it’s just effortless. When people don’t define who they’re looking for, who they want to connect with, or even just have an intention about it. Then you get people who, like, don’t understand what you do, think it’s expensive. They need things that you don’t have, you know, and it just. It causes a lot of friction.
Melinda: Yeah. So identifying that, the type of person that just lights you up.
Suzanne: Yeah.
Melinda: Like when you see their name on your calendar, you’re like, oh, my gosh, I get to talk to that person. And I think we become that magnet when we have that clarity, and then the synchronicities happen, and then the out of the blue conversations show up. But it’s that clarity that turns us on to be that magnet, I think. When it comes to another element that you talked about, it’s the messaging. You emphasize voice of customer research. Right. And so how does gathering that insight give coaches an advantage in cracking their business code?
Suzanne: Yeah. So I think this is an especially important topic for coaches because most of us have the natural ability to be so, so good at this and be really, really full of integrity and very kind with our clients with Voice of Customer Research. So what happens is they have this passion, they have this thing that they want to share, and they’re like, sharing and sharing and sharing and sharing is sort of like telling people what they should do or promoting their message or, you know, just sharing outward. But the process of working with Voice of Customer Research, it includes your audience in this really beautiful way.
And it’s just like coaching, where you engage in a skillful listening process through compiling voice of Customer research. So if the coach has had clients in the past, they can look through past client communications. If they haven’t, it’s totally okay. They can look through the comment section of popular social media posts to their competitors. They’re never copying their brand. They’re listening to the conversation happening in the comments. They can also listen to the conversation happening in Amazon reviews for say, you know, under books that are similar to the work they do.
And so they’re, they’re really listening to the overall conversation, like the overall vibe in their niche. They’re listening to for people’s hopes, dreams, fears and aspirations. They’re looking for, you know, what’s happening in a person’s life that’s causing them to reach out for solutions and it can really help them gain a deep understanding of, of where their ideal clients are at and how they, you know, why they may be looking for a coach and then the coach can speak to that in their website, in their messaging, in their emails, in a free opt in, in their courses and their everything.
So basically it’s a way of listening to your audience so you can better understand them so you have the ability to meet their needs in your free or paid products or services. Actually it’s a little bit of a mental shift for most people, but if they’re willing to make that shift, it makes things so much, so much easier. Like I have sat in so many rooms of people like trying to figure out what their audience might want and it’s essentially like a big guessing game. You know, it’s like, why don’t we just ask them. We’re all a little over surveyed these days. So I think this process of listening, you know, we don’t really have to talk to anybody to do it, but it can be so powerful and just understanding where people are and where we can meet them with our coaching.
Melinda: Yeah. I remember early on, within the first few years of my coaching business, I was talking with a marketing guy and he was going to help me with my website and he’s like, well, tell me all the pains and struggles of the people you love to work with. And I’m like, I don’t focus on pains and struggles. I’m a coach. Do you not know what a coach is? I help people get results I look for. And he’s like, well no, you have to understand their challenges. I argued with him and like I would not let up. But he was not able to articulate and explain to me why that was important. He just kept saying, you have to do this, you have to do this. And I kept saying no, I’m not, I don’t live in that land.
Suzanne: Yeah.
Melinda: And that was one of the biggest lessons in my business because eventually now it took me a long time because I was so stubborn in that, but eventually what I, I finally had somebody explain to me that, well, understanding and being able to articulate the challenges, the frustrations, the points of overwhelm, you’re able to meet the client where they’re at because whenever you meet somebody that you, your skills can help by nature, in order to hire you, they have to be a hot mess. They have to live in the land of challenges. They have to be frustrated, they have to be in a state of challenge and quote, unquote, pain, right? May not be physical pain, but the frustrations. And I was like, oh, right now I understand.
And in that moment, from that point on, I have always defined niche. Like you were talking about earlier. I was like, it’s not about the demographics. It’s not about the qualities, the characteristics, the attributes. It’s about the challenges, the common challenges that keep a group of people awake at night.
Suzanne: Yeah.
Melinda: There’s the description of the niche. And then I was like, on the flip side, like, you were talking about the hopes and dreams and aspirations. It’s the goals, the outcomes, the results that a common group of people wants. The understanding that, that’s the description of the niche. Because I used to find it so, like fingernails on a chalkboard when people would say, pick a niche, niche down, get more specific, get more niche, more, niche, more. And I’m like, no, because I’m like, I don’t want to work with fewer people. I want to work with more people.
And as soon as I had this aha. And I was like, oh, my gosh. It’s about the description of the challenges and it’s about the description of the outcomes. Whoever is facing that, I’m here to help those people. And so I’ve been teaching that niche approach very differently ever since. And ever since that clarity, meeting them where they are, they’re like, oh, my gosh, you get me. It creates this bond of trust and connection. And that is what’s so beautiful. And there’s where, again, there’s where we turn on that magnet right when we’re talking about attracting.
And so I love putting the attention on the challenges and the way they describe their frustrations. And I love putting the attention on the outcomes and the results and the way they describe that and being listening for that. Because then like you said, including those words and phrases and messaging, subject lines, social media posts, content everywhere, now you’re not guessing, now you’re not hoping. Now you know, and it becomes much easier.
Suzanne: We’re so thoroughly on the same page.
Melinda: And we’ve talked a little bit about the voice of customer research. And so when it comes to copy, creating material, whether it’s emails or social media or a free lead magnet opt in, whatever it is. When it comes to creating copy, what are the essentials for connecting with your audience and cracking what you call the conversation code?
Suzanne: I believe this is also such an important topic because copywriting, I have found it to be so misunderstood, and I think it’s easy to misunderstand it because people say, like, oh, it’s writing. I know how to write. Like, I’ve been writing since, you know, elementary school or whenever most people, you know, learn that. And so they go and they write these emails and they write an entire website and they, you know, write all this stuff and it doesn’t really work. And I think it’s really important for people to understand that copywriting or conversion copywriting is really a professional skillset.
It’s sort of misunderstood, like coaching. People can see coaching from the outside and be like, oh, they’re just having a nice conversation if they don’t really understand what it is. And so I think copywriting can seem like it’s just writing, but really it’s a process of writing in a way that engages the reader and invites them to take the next step with you in your business. And I want to call this out because I think it’s a really important point for coaches that copywriting exists on a continuum where, you know, at one end of the continuum, it’s like just nice words on a page. It’s not engaging at all. At the other end of the spectrum, there are people out there who are, like, deeply researching the dark arts of persuasion. And they will wrangle. They will generate insecurities for people and then wrangle them to get the sale at, like, any cost.
That’s not my vibe. I’m not into that. I have had a lot of success in the middle of that continuum where I’m using copy principles, I’m crafting emails, web pages, all this stuff to be engaging. I’m inviting people to take a specific next step in my business or in my clients businesses, and then assessing how well that performed. So I just wanted to say that about copywriting because that comes up of people being like, oh, I don’t want to be, like, manipulative, but we do need to be engaging enough.
Melinda: Right. We need to be engaging. We need to, like I said earlier, we need to meet them where they’re at. Yes. We need to help engage them so that when they’re ready, they can take the next steps but not manipulate them. Right. And so being of service, it’s, it’s a fine line. And I love how you, you expressed it as that continuum. And I would imagine that a lot of people listening into this podcast are also going to agree that it’s not their vibe to get into the dark arts of persuasion. Although I do love the psychology behind it. I love understanding why people think the way they do or why they act the way they do.
And so I love the, the psychology behind engaging copy, but not that dark, shadowy, persuasive, manipulating. So it is something to pay attention to. And I want to share another tip here when we’re talking about copy, because copywriting, it still takes diligent effort for me after all these years and all the classes I’ve taken, and it was something that I overlooked. You’re like, oh, I can write. I, you know, I’m pretty good at writing. And I quickly discovered that writing, like writing papers and the correct way of writing and grammar does not necessarily translate to copywriting. And when somebody finally said the conversational style of writing, I was like, oh, and I could turn off my perfectionist, got to get an A plus, make sure all my commas are in the right place.
And I was like, let me just have a conversational style of writing. It helped me to wrap my mind around creating copy that is compelling and engaging with people. And, and it took me a lot of classes and a lot of time to understand what seems so natural, but it is not natural for me. So it’s another important skill set when we put on that business owner hat that we really have to pay attention to is creating the right kind of copy for our audience. Not just the right words or phrases, but the right style, the right format,
Suzanne: Definitely. First, I majorly want to acknowledge that in my experience is so much easier writing copy for other people’s brands than it is my own. If any coaches are decent at any kind of writing, it’s worth their while to learn the skill set. Me personally, I learned it through Jeff Walker’s product launch formula. I also learned through copyhackers Joanna Weaves company. And I haven’t done it myself, but I believe Story Brand is pretty solid. It’s really worth looking into becoming trained in writing copy because it’s such a high value skill set. And when you can write it for your own business, number one, you can save so much money. And number two, if you want to overhaul something, you can just copy and mix stuff when you need to, which is very helpful.
Melinda: Now, let me ask you this. Can you share, you know, protecting the confidentiality of the client, but can you share a story of a client who they were feeling stuck in their business? What was it they were doing wrong? How did you help them turn things around? Can you share a specific moment with our listeners?
Suzanne: There are a bunch of examples I could share, but I think there’s one that illustrates a pretty important point in how to troubleshoot things in a person’s business. And this is with someone who I just had a discovery call with, and I’m always sort of on the fence of how much to get into a person’s business versus just assessing them to be a client. And I will say that this client got me a little further into talking about his business than I wanted. And after the fact, I was like, I hate that. We really, like, dove right into that, you know, So I kind of just putting that out there that those things that are just a work in progress and this was a discovery call that we got pretty deep into the nuances of his business.
And he came to the session and he was saying that, you know, he’s had successful businesses before, that he has amassed an audience. And I’ll anonymize this. He’s amassed an audience. He’s a dating coach. He amassed an audience of guys who were very interested in connecting through his Facebook group from ads. I think he had an email list. He had, like, thousands of people interested in connecting with him and his content. And people were applying for his coaching program, but he had no signups. And he was like, I don’t get it. And he had this big audience, but just wasn’t converting them.
And so we’re talking through the nuances of who the people were in his audience. And he said that they were guys who were recently divorced. And his coaching program was for high end life optimization for men. And talking around this, we realized that the guys in the group were raising their hands like, yes, I absolutely want that. But they were so freshly out of a divorce that they needed like a grief counselor. They were not in a place maybe they could be there in a few years or however long, you know, each person’s process was, but they were not at all in a place where they could really engage in a coaching program like that. You know, we’re sort of co creating and figuring that out together.
And he was like, yeah, that makes total sense. Like, of course they all want that, but they’re not in a place to engage with that and their finances are all messed up. And so I mentioned to him, you know, the next steps would be to either find a different way. He had this pretty big audience. The next steps would be to find a way to engage with that audience, you know, maybe bring some other resources in. And then depending how he wanted to go about it, he could either stick with his audience or he had this kind of dream audience that was ready and available for him for the vision he had for his coaching program. So it’s like you can start the process of connecting with them.
And I don’t know what he ended up doing because we didn’t work together, but it’s such an important illustration of the value of knowing and understanding your ideal client and creating experiences and offers that are specifically tailored to them. You know, having an understanding of what else is out there in the marketplace for sure, and pricing things appropriately. And I think also there can be this really natural inclination to take actions in marketing and then say, okay, like, where are the clients? It can be similar to meeting strangers on the street and like having this nice little conversation and then being like, oh, but like, I’m not married, what happened?
There are usually more steps in between there. So I think it’s important for people to understand their customer journey, just where people are and what they’re ready for and not really just look to say the, the first step and then assessing if you get clients but looking at, you know, what we call micro conversions of like hey, how many people came to your website? How many people opted in for your free email thing? How many people opened the first email? How many people engaged with the second subject line. You know, there are all these little places where we can gauge people’s interest. It’s just another way of listening and then be able to respond to them appropriately.
Melinda: Yeah, nice. Now, I want to summarize what we’ve covered so far in the conversation today because we took a journey and I love where we started to that distinction between the because I had to and it would be nice like that fine line being a business owner and pursuing your own business of ambivalence and desperation. And I love how you shared know yourself because some people perform better under pressure, some performers perform better with space. So it’s not a good bad, right or wrong. Just know yourself when you’re getting started. I also love that you gave two qualities of successful business owners. They define what success means to them. So important we just, we think we know, but defining it and then deciding it.
I love define and decide. I love those two qualities that you gave us. You gave us three areas. If you’re feeling stuck, look at these areas. The, the messaging, identifying your ideal person, the pricing. We got into a couple of those which was really good. I loved our conversation about creating compelling copy to really engage the right kind of people. And then at the very end, talking about knowing your customer journey, that that’s so important and it can help decide the difference between having a lot of interest and no people signing up versus having a lot of interest and a lot of people signing up. So Suzanne, thank you for sharing all of these elements with us. Do you have any parting words for our listeners today?
Suzanne: Just keep learning and growing. The whole process of being in business and digital marketing is a natural process of testing and iteration. So put together the best offer you can based on the research, based on what you believe people would love. Price it based on competitor research and then see how it performs. Make sure you have a good number of people come through it before you scrap it. And so it’s just this ongoing process of making these strong hypotheses, testing it to see how it goes and then refining it to try to make it better. So see the long term vision and keep asking questions and you can get there.
Melinda: Beautiful. Thank you for listening to this episode of Just Between Coaches and also a big thank you to Suzanne for this great conversation. You can find out more about her at SuzanneReilley.com. That’s Suzanne S U Z A N N E Reilley R E I L L E Y dot com. And in the show notes, you’ll find the link to her website and the free workshop, 11 Game Changing Strategies for Increased Business Revenue and a Steady Stream of Clients. Suzanne, thank you so much for coming to the show.
Suzanne: Thanks again for having me, Melinda.
Melinda: I’m Melinda Cohan and you’ve been listening to Just Between Coaches. Just Between Coaches is part of the Mirasee FM Podcast Network, which includes such shows as Once Upon a Business and Course Lab. For more great episodes of Just Between Coaches, follow us on Mirasee FM’s YouTube channel or your favorite podcast player. If you enjoyed the show and want to help spread the word, please leave us a five star review and tell your friends. Thanks and see you next time.