Just Between Coaches – Episode 131
Guiding High Achievers to Life Purpose (Esther Zeledón)
Esther Zeledón: And you’re always juggling time and you always feel time poor. You’re always overbooking yourself and it sounds crazy to a lot of people, but high achievers also suffer from procrastination, but not in the way that we think about. Not that we don’t achieve our goals, but we procrastinate working on the things that are for us.
Melinda Cohan: Ever wondered how to guide high achievers towards their true purpose? The traits of high achievers might present unique challenges and opportunities for coaches. If you want to know how to help them uncover their authentic path and lead more fulfilling lives, keep listening.
I’m Melinda Cohan and you’re listening to Just Between Coaches. I run a business called The Coaches Console and we’re proud to have helped tens of thousands of coaches create profitable and thriving businesses. This is a podcast where we answer burning questions that newer coaches would love to ask a more experienced coach. High achievers often find themselves in a hamster wheel, always one foot on the accelerator pedal without even caring to take a pit stop for refueling. In this episode, we’re going to explore the strategies essential for guiding these clients to unlock their genuine life purpose.
Dr. Esther Zeledón is joining me today for this conversation and she’s many things. She’s entrepreneur, she’s life coach, speaker, scientist, mentor and former diplomat. She’s the co-founder of Be.Act.Change. She has been globally recognized for her work with NGO’s, governments, academia and one on one coaching clients, helping high achieving individuals and teams find their purpose and achieve enduring impact, boundless joy and sustainable growth. Welcome Esther.
Esther: Thank you so much for having me.
Melinda: I am excited to have you on the show and I’m excited to talk about this topic. I had another guest on the show recently where we talked about high achievers and perfectionism and really dove into that distinction. But what really piqued my interest in your background and your work is how you transitioned from your family’s expectations to entrepreneurship, helping individuals, helping those NGO’s and companies find and live their purpose. So I want to focus this conversation on high achievement and purpose. So just tell us a little bit of your background so our listeners really get to know who you are.
Esther: Yeah, yeah, of course. I was born in Nicaragua, in Central America. And actually, when I was two years old, I almost died. I was given three weeks to live. And my dad is not like a religious man, but he’s like spiritual and he was trying to find anything that we could do. He had taken me to all the doctors all around Central America and no one could do anything. They could only do something in Miami. But he felt this calling, that he wanted to play the lottery. So he played the lottery with my aunt. He bought ten, my aunt bought ten. And they win, and they use all the money to save my life in Miami. So I was in Miami for six months. I got the treatment I needed, and they saved my life.
Now when they come back to Nicaragua, the country is going through a civil war, right? So my dad was getting bomb threats. He had been working with the government. Things were getting really dicey, and we had to leave everything behind. And they had used all their lottery winnings on me. So we moved to the US. We went from my dad having a great job and status and all these things to having nothing. We went as immigrants, United States, having nothing on the bottom. Now, great. They saved my life. But what that did to me, though, I felt that I owed them, right? That I felt this obligation because they could have had money, they could have had resources, and because they chose to save my life, right? We went to go live at the bottom, right, in the United States, struggling for money, paycheck to paycheck, the hustle. My mom had a graduate degree, but packing presents at Macy’s. My dad was working five jobs.
So it gave me that people pleasing, that I need to do something. I need to get my parents out of this situation and that track. So then I became the high achiever. And at first, out of survival, out of necessity, right? It was more like; I need to get out of here. I need to create a better life for my family. I need to take this opportunity. And they used to repeat to me all the time, you have the opportunity, you need to take advantage of it. We didn’t come here and lose everything or do all this right for you not to do anything. So I grew up with that, became the perfect child, people pleasing, the achievement, the straight A student.
And then we had to move to Miami at some point because my dad went back to Nicaragua to work. We stayed in Miami, and it was okay. I have to still hustle it, figure this out, do everything for myself. And then I got the full scholarship to college. But then I was in college, also same thing. Almost failing my first year and then having to work because I was working six jobs on a scholarship, right? Become this high achiever, figuring things out and strategically placing myself for the next step. And then I went to get my doctorate degree.
But I was already starting to notice misalignment by the time I got my doctorate degree, you know, because I had been told you’re going to get all these check marks. You’re going to go to the best schools, and you’re going to get this PhD. And I remember sitting there with my PhD certificate, and I felt so empty, right? I was like, okay, where’s the magic? And so then I was like, well, maybe I don’t feel the magic because I don’t have all the check marks yet. I’m like, huh? I’m not married yet by the certain timeline and date, as you’re told, right? I haven’t got into the career ladder. I’m like, that’s when I’m going to feel this magic. That’s what it is, right? The check marks that everyone sells you on the American dream.
So then I get married, again, check mark. And then I go into the workforce, and I’m like, oh, well, that’s the thing I’m missing. I’m not an executive. I’m not a leader yet. That’s what I need to do. I’m going to put my head down, work hard, don’t make waves, get to this position, and that’s when it’s all going to happen for me. I get to this position, you know? And at that point, I have endured not just the high achievement, but I’ve endured, like, bullying, being hyper scrutinized, right. The whole other side of being the high achiever that comes with that, right? Because great, you achieve, but then you’re also subject to extra scrutiny. You’re also subjected to extra hours. Right? There’s all this other side of it that comes in, right?
So I had done all that, and here I am in this position that I earned, I created. I built a whole team from the bottom up. I went from $700,000 to $100 million I raised for the organization. And I’m sitting here in a room with 30 awards, and I’m sitting in my office, and I’m going, is this where I want my legacy to be? If I, like, die tomorrow? Is this it? But it was just the thought. But then in the next year, my best friend passed away. And that was when I hit rock bottom, because she had been the only person other than my husband, I had confided in, right, all my dreams and aspirations and all these things I wanted to do when I retired.
And then when I went to her funeral, I was so angry, because majority of funerals in Latino culture are very religious and more about a reflection of your life, not a celebration of life. And I remember that hitting me so hard, because I’m like, why aren’t they talking about what an amazing person she is and all the dreams that she had and the impact she made in my life. After a while, I stormed out of there, like, furious. And then that made me reflect on myself, like, well, what was everybody going to say in mine? They’re going to talk about my achievement I’ve had within this one organization, but no one can speak about my dreams because I haven’t shared them and I haven’t acted on them.
And that’s when I changed my life. That’s when I was like, that’s it. I can’t anymore. This isn’t authentic. And I started to have these conversations with my family being like, I’m not fulfilled. I feel suffocated. I have these other ideas. And my dad turned to me, and he was like, but I don’t understand. You’ve impacted thousands of people all across the world. You have a five-bedroom house. You have private school for your kids. You’ve made it. And it’s the first time I raised my voice at him, and I, like, stomped on the table, and I’m like, that’s not my legacy. That’s not it. And I had to go and dig deep.
And then I started to realize, wait. I’ve spent my whole career in life helping other people discover their own mission, purpose, and vision. That’s what I was doing as a diplomat in international development. I was helping build, like, communities and countries and unpacking their purpose, their mission, their vision, and students when I was in graduate school. I had been doing that all along, but I hadn’t given myself any credit for it because I was just looking at the check marks, right? Those were my metrics, not the impact I was making on other people.
And when I started to look at that, I realized that is my unique gift I have for the world, right? That is how I solve problems. That is what I brought into the space of international development. That’s how I was able to change the way they did things. They used to go to countries and just go with their ideas and tell them what to do, like the American dream. And I told them, what makes you think that you have their solution? They have solutions. They need you to facilitate them. Some of the resistance I got is. But I don’t know how to listen because I haven’t been listened to.
And I was like, whoa, this is a much bigger problem than here. This is a global problem. We have not been listened to, right? We have been sold that everyone should have the same dream, the same check marks, the same things, but we haven’t taken the time, right, to change the narrative that we all have a unique value, right? And that’s when I was like, okay, that’s it. This is what I got to do with my life. I got to take it on and do it.
Melinda: Yeah. Wow, wow, wow. So there is so much to unpack there. So let’s really dive into a couple of the things that I heard you say, because I really want to get into this nuance of high achievers achieving purpose and all of that. But first, one of the things when you were describing your journey, this question popped up, and you talked about becoming a high achiever. You said that phrase, and I was like, huh? Cause I am a high achiever. So I am very intimately aware of everything you were just describing. And I know this journey as a high achiever.
And my thought was, did the degree of your purpose and for you began, it’s like, I’ve got to help my parents. We’ve got to do this. Like, we’ve got it, like, this has to happen. So you had this really strong purpose that you claimed. And so did the degree of your purpose shape the degree of you being a high achiever, or were you born with this trait? You’re just like, we all have our qualities and characteristics. You’re like, oh, Esther, you’re a high achiever. Go, live in this world. And so then that was how you navigated the purpose that came up. What drives what? I’ve never thought about that before. What are your thoughts about that?
Esther: You know, for me, it was the why, right? I really wanted to provide. It was that visionary and that goal setting. So I think it’s a combination because I think I naturally have tenacity, right? I have organization, right? So the goal setting and the visions, right, was always natural to me. So, like, for example, when I’ve unlocked my purpose now, you know, one question I give to my clients is like, who did you admire as a child? Who do you admire now?
And when I was a kid, I remember even at two years old, I always admired Walt Disney, but not because of his creation. Like, some people are like, oh, because he was creative in this. For me, is that he was visionary, right? He took, like, an idea to create a mouse and then created a whole Disney world and it was all about visualizing the future. So I think, like, my innate thing is that I was always visionary and I could see the future and then go back and put all the steps now.
So I had that naturally. But what gave me that fire, right, was like, the why behind it, right? So the why was I need to do this because of this bigger purpose, right, which was at first for my family. Now, the problem I think I faced later is that I was doing it for external reasons, right? To please others and not doing it for myself, right? Like, not seeing it as how can I bring my own unique how and why and values and still do that same thing where I’m helping my family but also have alignment.
Melinda: Now, would you say, because there was another thing that came up when I was listening to your story is exactly that right there. You know, there was a while where it was external driven, and then it shifted to become self-driven, not out of selfishness, but out of clarity for your own purpose and making sure you’re inserting yourself into the picture, especially when you get clear on that why. So would you think that’s a part of the distinction between high achievers versus overachievers?
Esther: Yeah. So for me, they’re the same. Almost like it’s like the high achievement turns into overachievement, right, because as we’re high achievers, we tend to overachieve, but overachieve the external, right? We go beyond that to the expense of our own selves, right? That’s where you get that overwhelm. That’s when you get the lack of, I call it work life integration, but it could be balance as well, right? That’s when we go beyond.
Melinda: Yeah.
Esther: Because we start competing with ourselves, and that’s when the perfectionism comes in, the exhaustion, all that stuff, right? So I think it’s like the high achievers, like, the person and the overachievements, like, it becomes like a symptom result, right?
Melinda: Yeah.
Esther: So a lot of my things is that if you’re living your purpose, it’s not about the next check mark, you’re reaching. It’s about, are you bringing in your unique how every day? Because when you bring that every single day and you’re showing up how you want to show up, you’re enjoying the journey, right? Not just seeking that destination where you think that’s where your fulfillment’s going to come from.
Melinda: Yeah. Again, that shift between internal driven versus external driven, it’s like, where’s the check mark? Got it. I did it. Great. Internal driven is like, how am I experiencing this while I’m doing the check marks? I really love that distinction. The high achiever is the person. The overachieving is the symptom.
Esther: Exactly.
Melinda: When I think about that overachieving, I think we tip into that scale when it becomes externally driven too much like you said. And the fear, I think when we don’t have that balance of internal and external, that’s when fear takes over and that’s when that overachieving and burnout begins to happen. So that’s very interesting. And so I really love that question, are you bringing in your unique how every day to enjoy the journey?
And so when it comes to high achievers, right? They’re really good at reaching goals, but that’s not the same as having or living one’s purpose. So tell about the difference between purpose and goal. I kind of feel like I’m preaching to the choir since it’s a lot of coaches that listen here, but I think it’s an important thing to really get into.
Esther: For sure, right? The goal is like the check mark. So maybe your goal is I want to increase my followers and engagement. And let’s say you have it at 8,000 followers, right? The purpose is about bringing a community, the engagement, showing up every day with, like, your message, right? What is the message that you’re giving to the world? What’s this solution? You’re giving to the world so you’re not as concerned about when the followers come and more about, you’re being present every day with bringing something to the audience, right? That’s the difference.
So, for me, when you know what you bring in, there’s no competition. There’s no competition because you’re unique in your own way and everyone else is unique in their own way. You’re a leader within yourself. But then I would see other people, they were so fixated on when I become that director, when I become that leader, I can then bring change and that. And I’m like, I challenge that you can bring change now. I think that sometimes our goals hold us back because we’re like, when I reach that goal, I will be able to do X influence, right?
Melinda: Yeah.
Esther: Rather than showing up today and bring it today, there’s nothing magical about that. And it’s great to have goals, maybe, yeah, you want to reach that, you want to do that. But you start being that person today, right? And then when that comes, that’s just another milestone, but not a place where that’s what I need to be at to be able to start being my authentically me.
Melinda: Now, with high achievers, I’m thinking about myself and just running through a lot of the high achievers that I know been in masterminds with colleagues, confidants, whatnot. And a lot of high achievers, like, they are already clear on their purpose and their goals. Do you find that you have clients coming to you that are saying, I’m a high achiever, but I don’t know my purpose.
Esther: Yes, almost all of them, actually. So, like, that’s my specialty, is high achievers that have been chasing the external check marks and goals, but feel that there’s more out there and there’s a little voice inside them that’s like, there’s more for me, and there’s something misaligned in them, right? So there are amazing experts in their field, in their niche, but they don’t have clarity on what is it that they’re missing, what is it that drives them.
And a lot of them have the same background as me that have had to chase everything, be a certain way, and are scared to be vulnerable, are scared to show who they are or even scared to communicate that they want purpose because of, I don’t want to seem ungrateful. I owe it to my ancestors. I don’t want to feel selfish, all those things. And because of that, they have followed a path and done very well in it, but it’s not their path, and they don’t have that creative freedom. And freedom, I use it very wide because not everyone is about financial freedom. A lot of these folks have the financial. It’s that they want freedom of creativity, they want freedom of speaking. They want freedom of thought.
And that’s something I didn’t have in the diplomatic service, right? I was a public figure. So a lot of the people I work with, they don’t know who they are anymore. They’re masters in their craft, but they want to move from high achieving to trailblazing. They want to be trailblazers, and it’s like figuring out what that’s aligned within them.
Melinda: I love that. Now you just touched on something there, vulnerability, being transparent. That was something, as a high achiever, when I stopped making it about the external check marks and really was like, wait a minute, what’s my purpose here? And really got on that path as a high achiever and embraced my high achiever, I also discovered, ooh, I’ve got to be vulnerable. I’ve got to be transparent. And I remember one of my coaches at the time, she’s like, Melinda, you got to be okay being a hot mess. And I’m like, no. Like, that does not exist.
But I think that’s part of, as we’re discovering our purpose, as we’re working with clients that are high achievers, helping them navigate, fulfilling their purpose, hitting those milestones in new ways, we have to help them learn how to be vulnerable and transparent and see the messy side of high achieving. Talk about that for a second. Talk about the messy side of high achieving.
Esther: Oh, yes. And that’s the hardest part because everyone has relied on you. Everyone looks up to you, and so you don’t show that side, right? You suffer in silence. I talk about this a lot in my book, that suffering. And you’ve never, ever told your family or your friends or anything, right? Everyone’s always like, she’s got it together, fully together. Right? But inside your mind, there’s a lot in there. Like the whole-time thing. You’re always juggling time, and you always feel time poor. You’re always overbooking yourself. And it sounds crazy to a lot of people, but high achievers also suffer from procrastination, but not in the way that we think about. Not that we don’t achieve our goals, but we procrastinate, working on the things that are for us, right, that are towards our legacy, towards our things.
And so there is still that suffering of, like, procrastination imposter syndrome when you’re stretching and, like, you want to try something different, you like to stay in your safe lane because you’re already an expert in your craft on this one thing. Going out there, I don’t know because then I might not be a high achiever in that. I don’t know if I can try it. And so there’s that because you don’t want to lose your image or your persona that you already have and already rewarded with.
And then there’s also this self-doubt, right? Like, well, I have these ideas. I have this purpose, and I felt that, too, when I started entrepreneurship. I’m like, I don’t have an MBA. I don’t know if I can do this. And then my mind automatically, right? It’s a high achiever thing. Well, let me go get an MBA. And then when I master it, I’ll start it. But then again, that’s like, that’s delaying because of the self-doubt. And instead of embracing failure as an event, as a process and not me, right, because that’s the other messy side, is that we take failure really hard and we to see it as us rather than an event. And I had to change my mindset and I had to work on that. It’s just an event, but it’s really hard.
Melinda: Yeah.
Esther: For a high achiever. And, like, we love to learn, but it’s exposing us in that learning process.
Melinda: Yeah.
Esther: Is what’s difficult because we want to go out there. Once we’re experts.
Melinda: Yeah, once. Then we’ll do that. Yeah. So now, let’s look at it from the coach’s perspective. So for the coaches that are coaching high achieving individuals, how do you coach your clients in the messy side of all of this, in those vulnerabilities? Like, do you have some techniques or strategies or tips for the coaches that are working this way with their clients?
Esther: Yeah. And I think one big tip I can say, which I had to learn, was that high achievers want complete confidentiality. And that was really difficult at first, right? Because I had taken these coaching courses, done the whole thing, and everything was like, grab a testimonial, put their picture and video with you on their success, right? And all the clients I was working with, they’re like, do not tell a soul that you are coaching me. That cannot come out. You cannot use me as a case study. You cannot put my name out. You cannot anything because I need complete confidentiality. No one at work can find out. No one from my family, no one talked about that.
And also on my social media, I was like, wait, I had grown a following, right, to 8,000 more. And I was like, why aren’t people engaging publicly? And they were engaging through DMs, and I was like, guys, why don’t you put that public? And they’re like, no, because everything I comment can be scrutinized. And they know that I like a coach. And it’s like all this spinning. And so first thing is that I had to sit with it and go, okay, right? It’s about serving my client, not me, and I need to adjust to them, right? So what that meant was, guess what? I’m not going to have tons of testimonials on my page. A lot of my stuff’s going to be word of mouth. I have to build their trust and confidentiality before I touch the messy things.
So I usually start my program first about purpose and unpacking that, and then I’m like, let’s make a plan to get there. And then once I’ve developed some trust over some sessions and they see I’m not sharing it with anyone, this person knows me, I’ve gained that. And then I touch on the messy stuff that’s like, okay, so let’s map out how we’re going to get there and we’re going to have to work on the mindset. But it’s later once I’ve developed a really good, confidential, trustful relationship with my client. So I had to do that switch on, like, knowing that person needs the trust, needs the confidentiality before they can expose their vulnerabilities. And also, feedback is really hard for the high achiever.
So another thing, too, is like, everyone’s messiness has a little different variable to it. So part of my purpose exercise, I do this thing about what have you overcome and how, because how you overcome things are very unique to you and the tools you used are very unique to you. So I unpack that as part of the purpose exercise so that when we’re doing that messy work, it’s utilizing tools that already work for them so it doesn’t feel so foreign to the person, right? It feels natural because they’ve already implemented that.
Melinda: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Now, can you share some other strategies that you use with your high achieving clients to help them discover their purpose or on their way to living and fulfilling their purpose? What are some other strategies and tips you have?
Esther: So what I like to start with is a very big visioning exercise because it’s really changing that mindset framework. The high achievers used to like, I have this next milestone, this next goal, right? My next week, my day, right? All the things that they got to get done. But this is like, okay, let’s stop right there. So I start with an exercise like, hey, you have $2 billion, and you’ve been invited to G7. And then sometimes even 2 billion, they start questioning me. I’m like, okay, 5 billion, 10 billion, whatever. You have a lot of money, but you’ve been asked to solve one problem, and they’re like, whoa, but there’s tons of problems. I’m like, I want you to pick one.
And from there, how would you solve it? I get them to answer the how. And then at first, it’s like, very vague. Like, okay, I give an example, right? I had one recently that said, he said he wanted to solve division in the world. And I’m like, okay, how? And he’s like, well, I would get people to stop and accept the world, what it is and then move forward. And then I have to help them dig further. I’m like, okay, how are you going to get the world to accept? How are you going to get them to move forward? Right. Not general how.
And then he has to think about it, and he’s like, okay, well, I guess we’ll start here. You know, I mean, and then there’s steps, and then I’m like, okay, you’ve told me that for one section. How would you do for the whole world? Would you hire a team? Would you do it all yourself? What kind of medium would you use, right? And nobody answers to how the same, the problem is not as important, right. Because the problem is just the problem. But what’s really key is your how because that’s how you like to show up to the world. That’s how you solve problems. And then after we do all that, I’m like, great, you did it for this problem. Do you use that same how in your personal life?
Melinda: Oh, mic drop.
Esther: They’re like, I do. And then they’re like, oh. And then it’s like analyzing, like, do you get to show up that way where you are right now? And a lot of times it’s no, right? And so that’s where that conversation starts, right? Like, this is how you want to show up. This is how you want to solve problems every day. But it’s big, right? Because now they’re thinking about a framework because it’s really hard for them at first because they want to think about, like, their job. And I’m like, no, let’s take it bigger, right, you’re solving a world problem. And they’re like, okay, let’s take it bigger, bigger. And then when you get bigger is when they’re like, right, I do have a framework I use every day.
Melinda: As a coach, so for our coaches listening in that work with high achievers, is there like an uncommon area that as a coach, we need to make sure we support our high achieving clients and they’re easy to coach? It’s like, oh, my gosh, like, as a coach, I don’t have to do much when I coach high achievers because they’re managing themselves through the whole journey. So is there an area that as a coach, we need to make sure we’re having the high achievers pay attention to while we’re coaching them?
Esther: Yeah. And I think it’s that vulnerability, transparency and authenticity, right? And so that’s why I spent a lot of time unpacking that with that person because then you can, as they speak, bring them back because they want to be the best students and they want to show their best face forward to you, but they don’t want to be as open, right, with the struggles and the vulnerability. That’s the side that’s hard. That’s why I like to unpack.
Melinda: Yeah.
Esther: Everything they’ve been through in the past. What are their red flags? Because I’m looking for those red flags.
Melinda: Yeah, yeah.
Esther: I’m like, okay, what kind of filters are we going to put in place so when you set the expectations that we don’t repeat what you’ve overcome. And those are the things that they don’t want to bring up. So we need to go through what you overcome and I’m going to highlight it, but it’s also about like telling them upfront that this is going to happen. So nobody, like, they don’t like to be blindsided. It’s like, I’m going to look for those red flags as we’re working together. I’m going to bring it up to you as I see it, but more so that we can create a plan so you never go back to that spot, right? They’re going to bring their best face forward, but we have to help them see their blind spots that we can see. That’s why they’ve hired us, right? To help them grow and help them unlock their limiting beliefs and help them move forward. So it’s part of our job, right?
Melinda: Yeah. And that, that what you just said, it’s so important. High achievers, we are really good at bringing our best face forward, making it look like we got our act together. And so as coaches, you have to really see what’s going on underneath the conversation, what’s not being said. I find that to be one of the biggest skills I can bring to the table working with other high achievers is being hyper aware of what’s not being said and calling it out and then not letting them do a good job of talking and dancing their way through it, but calling them on it and really holding it to them because we can get out of anything and we can look good in anything and we can make it sound really great because it’s the role that we play. And so that I think that’s really important, that what not being said skill is going to be imperative working with high achievers.
So I just want to summarize some of the things that we talked about today because I really love at the beginning of our conversation, we got into that distinction between high achievers versus achievers, and along with that, the distinction between goal versus purpose. And I love when you talked about the high achiever is the person, the overachiever is the symptom, and that’s where the fear kicks in and we have to go beyond that. And we talked about the messy side of navigating the journey as a high achiever and I really appreciated that. And you gave us some great tips as coaches for how to support high achievers in the messiness.
You talked about some strategies to help high achievers discover their purpose and understanding what drives them. Thank you for getting so granular with that and just really understanding as a coach, we have to pay attention to those messy, sided things, to what’s not being said, what’s going on underneath it. And I really loved all the nuances that we looked at in being high achievers because I know a lot of entrepreneurs fit that description, like you and I do. And coaching high achievers. Esther, do you have any parting words for our listeners today?
Esther: I think this is, like, really important work. I honestly believe we can help high achieving individuals get really aligned and with purpose and unleash the trailblazing in them. I just believe, like, we can make this world amazing and we can end all the suffering and silence and anxiety and depression that so many of us feel when we’re not being our authentic selves.
Melinda: So, Esther, thank you so much for being on the show. And thank you everybody for listening to this episode of Just Between Coaches. I want to share my appreciation for you, Esther, for diving into what’s a tricky topic for a lot of folks. And the best way that you can find out more about Esther is on Instagram. Instagram.com/be.act.change. In the show notes, you’ll find links to our website, books, and other resources. Esther, thank you so much for coming to the show.
Esther: Thank you.
Melinda: I’m Melinda Cohan, and you’ve been listening to Just Between Coaches. Just Between Coaches is part of the Mirasee FM podcast network, which also includes such shows as Course Lab and To Lead Is Human. To catch the great episodes on Just Between Coaches, please follow us on Mirasee FM’s YouTube channel or your favorite podcast player. And if you enjoyed the show, please leave us a comment or a starred review. It’s the best way to help us get these ideas to more people. Thank you and see you next time.