Course Lab – Episode 105
From Music Mastery to Teaching Online (Cheryl Ann Fulton)
Abe Crystal: People aren’t taking her class so that they can then become master harpists and go out and perform and make a lot of money by performing because Cheryl already learned that you can’t do that in this niche. But they’re happy to pay for a course anyway because it’s scratching their creative itch. It’s making them feel more fulfilled as a person.
Ari Iny: Hello and welcome to Course Lab, the show that teaches creators like you how to make better online courses. I’m Ari Iny, the director of growth at Mirasee, and I’m here with my co-host, Abe Crystal, the co-founder of Ruzuku.
Abe: Hey there, Ari.
Ari: In each episode of Course Lab, we showcase a course and creator who is doing something really interesting, either with the architecture of their course or the business model behind it, or both. Today, we welcome Cheryl Ann Fulton, a world class harpist and pioneering expert in historical harps, to the show. With a distinguished career since 1984, Cheryl is hailed as a genuine virtuosa and specializes in medieval, renaissance, baroque, petal and contemporary harps. Her artistry spans over 40 recordings across various genres and she continues to explore the deep connections between music and nature as showcased in her film, the harps in the trees.
Welcome, Cheryl.
Cheryl Ann Fulton: Super happy to be here.
Ari: Awesome. So the way that I like to kick off these conversations is just asking you kind of, could you give us a 30,000-foot view of yourself and how you came to the world of online courses?
Cheryl: I first came to online courses because I heard maybe in 2016, Teach and Grow Rich. And I thought, you know, I’m ready for that. So then I discovered the capacity to do online courses. And I’d already been teaching on Skype for a number of years before many people were doing it, simply because I was teaching at various universities and there was no way I was going to move anywhere out of the Bay Area. So I was using Skype. And so the first thing I did was for my online course. Part of my business is join the Course Builders Lab. And so I had a little bit of a rocky journey with that because I didn’t exactly fit the mold that was up at that time.
Cheryl: So eventually, I found a good coach and I managed to put together my first big evergreen course. So I did that in 2017. What I did not do was follow the model of testing a pilot. What I did was I just went for it because I was also trying to create a legacy. So it was one of those courses just like, took enormous effort. I’ve got 24 professional videos and it’s a great course this is before I had any real business experience, although I’ve been having business experience without knowing it my whole career. I did manage to sell, I think, eventually was 97 courses, and I made over eleven or $12,000 on the course, but it kind of paid for itself. It wasn’t anywhere close to that dream of actually making more income.
So it launched in July 2020, right after the pandemic started. And so I had a kind of a boost from that. So then I had decided to try ACES, and I jumped in. I felt really confident about it, and I was two months into it, learning everything. And part of me was thinking, oh, my God, this is the craziest thing I’ve ever done. There’s no way I’m going to make back that investment, because with my career and what I do, I’m not one of these people that regularly make six figures, right? That’s just not usual in my field. But I kept working at it, and it was a matter of everything starting to come together and also to just start accepting that business is about offering my gift.
That’s what business is. Business is about me finding a way to reach the people who can benefit from what I have to teach. And that was the big shift that finally totally happened when I joined aces. And before that, you know, as an artist, my whole relationship to business was not really understanding it and thinking that it was contrary to having an artistic life. Right?
Ari: So can you tell us a little bit more about that course? How is it different? Not necessarily in substance, but how is the process different from the previous course that, you know, you sold actually a good amount of 97 sales, but how is it different in what it’s able to do for your business?
Cheryl: Well, the way it came about was my coach, Andrea and Lori, both in the beginning of Aces, we were trying to determine what I was going to do to up my income. And so various things. One was, well, maybe offer some workshops because I have a steady one to one studio with students that is regular, but I’ve been wanting desperately to get away from that because it takes so much energy and to do more, one to many. So they suggested, well, let’s do a workshop. So I scheduled three workshops for the sprint, one each a month. And I had this idea of combining my performing group with a course in medieval music because it was easy, because that’s what I had. It was easy. I had the people I knew what I was doing.
And then as I began playing it, I realized, wait a minute, this is not going to work. I was trying to do something that was going to be online and live at the same time. And I thought, that’s not going to work. But I already had all these people signed up for the online. And this is, out of all things, medieval music, medieval modes, this is not a hot topic, right, in general, but that’s what it was. So I had these folks, very enthusiastic sign up. And during the course of the workshops, the three workshops, the people in the class saying, we want more. And it became obvious, wow, okay, I’ll try a course.
And it was effortless that I wasn’t even canvassing to find out what do my customers, what do my students want? They just told me. And so I thought, okay, I’ll go for it. And Andrea was all for it. And then I just dove in and I started applying all the things I learned in aces that I didn’t know before about actually using everything I know about what I’ve done in my artistic life, performing life, and just being more clear about what I was doing. So I had one JV call that resulted in, like 20 sign ups immediately. I have a wonderful virtual assistant, so for the first time in my career, I wasn’t doing everything all by myself. That was huge. Very good assistant who really helped me get my email list together and send out great emails, and then I used Facebook groups.
I just went everywhere I could, and I worked like crazy getting the word out. And then at one point, my coach, Andre, and I just said, you know, I’m going to get 50 students, which from where I was, seemed crazy, that many students for what I was doing. But she said, yeah, go for it. And I just determined it was going to be 50. That’s it. And it happened. And it actually went to 57 students, and it made about 14k for this one. It was basically a four-week course.
And it was just so exhilarating to have that kind of success. The course was great. The students absolutely loved it. They’re all asking for the next one, which I’m going to have in January. And it was astounding. It was a real change for me. And having that sort of clarity and determination and then having that actual huge financial reward and fair compensation just put me on a whole new level with where I am and what I’m doing. I have way more confidence, optimism. It was pretty amazing, but it took a lot to get there.
Ari: So when you say took a lot to get there because something that you said earlier that stood out to me is business is contrary to having an artistic life. And so it sounds like you don’t find that to be the case anymore. You’ve changed kind of your perspective on that. And so I’m curious to hear a bit more about what caused that change to happen. What helped you get there?
Cheryl: Well, first of all, it is difficult when you’re playing an instrument like the harp, which is not the most usual instrument. Plus, I was well educated by three degrees from Indiana University and all that. So even when you’re way up at the tippy top of your field, the financial compensation is not great. I came out of my education there. I was a Fulbright scholar with no idea about finances. I was just passionate 100% on, I was going to do this and I did it. You practice six, 7 hours or more every day for years. That’s just life, right? No question about it.
And then in your career, you’re practicing that much, plus rehearsing. And then pretty soon after, for me, it took a long time, but it was seven, eight, nine years. When I’m going, my God, I’m living at poverty level because the amount that I get paid for a concert doesn’t pay for the hundreds of hours that you have to put in for preparation. So I was clueless. I had no idea, going out into the world, what all that meant. You’re not trained when you’re in a conservatory at a high-performance level. In my time, they never gave you a business class or taught you how to even think about it. And the feedback I used to get was, oh, you love what you do, you know, you don’t need to get paid.
I got told that a lot. Like my solo concert at the Kennedy center, solo recital, I probably made $1,000 and, you know, I played five harps, and you can imagine the hundreds of hours and everything that went into that. So the feedback I was getting from the world was, you’re not worth it. But just in reality, with the amount of money, and that was a hard thing to live through. And then figure out, how do I transform this? That’s not acceptable and it’s not true in terms of. I get constant feedback. I love your recordings. My music being used in operating rooms for people.
I mean, so not just the high-level concerts, but all these other things. So I know there’s value there, but I am not being told there’s value. And I have no idea about how do you create value in a business? You know, what does that mean? So eventually it just wore me down to the point of realizing I have to do something different. Luckily for me, I’m a natural teacher, not all performers are. I’m just very fortunate so that I was able to not have to travel so much and get paid so little for those kinds of concerts and teach more. And then that eventually led to doing online courses. I just began to see, you know, there’s a different way to do this. There’s a different way to see how to make what I have that’s of value to people also compensate me fairly.
That’s what I came to learn and feel great about it. So it was also just opening up a whole new world of how to use my creativity in reaching out to students and offering something that they love.
Ari: Yeah. So it sounds like it was like a real journey. It was not a. I made a switch. It was. There were multiple levels of kind of getting to that point. And the reason I’m digging into this is because I’m sure there are a lot of either course creators or people who want to be course creators who are listening, who may be in an artistic field and might not feel like they’re supposed to do this, because, as you said, there’s this feeling that business is contrary to having an artistic life, that piece.
And so of course, coming to terms with the fact that, well, you need to live, and so you need to have the money to live. And being able to get that money equals essentially building a business, whether you want to call it that or not. That’s the case. But it sounds like it was really a journey for you that took many, many years.
Cheryl: Absolutely. Yeah, it’s a lifetime. It’s maybe part of what I’m here to learn. It enriches me in terms of what I’m able to offer both as a performer and as a teacher. I mean, now I’m to the point where I only take the performances that I really want to do, and I don’t take things that are not that interesting or not going to pay and are just for performing because I’m able to teach and then do the online courses, so I’m able to really just pick the top things for performing. Part of the journey was the switch from doing that big evergreen course and then being in aces and doing the hybrid course. So doing the evergreen course, even I got done with it. It is a value.
It’s there, but I didn’t leave that course feeling great. You know, it didn’t produce what I had hoped it would produce. For me, it is of great value, but it was another example of something that just took everything out of me, hours and hours and hours, and didn’t produce the money that I was hoping for. So I would say to not be discouraged initially if you have an experience like that. But I just thought, you know what? Now it’s time to do it differently. Think differently, what’s possible. And then it was pivoting. It was having that support in aces, too, which helped me to just switch my way of thinking about it, finding out what your students want and delivering it in the best way possible for them. So it also creates the financial rewards for me.
Ari: So just make sure I understand you’re teaching people how to play the harp. So in a certain style.
Cheryl: Well, yes, but for the course that was so successful. Yeah, the hybrid course was on a musical topic, so it was not a technique course, because the technique courses didn’t seem to sell, or I couldn’t figure out how to do that. Right. So the. The course I offered was on medieval music, and I shopped it to medieval groups and church groups, and many people came to take it. The result of it, though, was that so many of the students in that course, at the end of it, actually, the next course I just finished, which was a course where I had 27 students, and I made over seven k on that.
For my second sprint, they asked me for a technique course. So that was very different than me offering what I think they need. Right. One of my students came up with the name tune up your tone. She said, lesson? Let’s do tune up your tone. I said, okay. And so that then became a different kind of course, which needed fewer people, and I had 27. That was about enough for that course where I was actually teaching. But the result of that has been that I had 100% attendance in that course, which is amazing, right? 100%. I either had everybody showing up or the people that couldn’t did their courses.
I checked the progress, and also, they wrote to me by email. And so it was amazing. And then from that, I now have a new cohort of group lessons. So I had ten people sign up right away for group lessons, which I’ve never done, and four people signed up for private lessons. So the second course I did was more about teaching the technique, and that has now evolved, but different. It wasn’t me saying, you need this. It was the student saying to me, can you please teach us what you’re doing?
Ari: And so, to clarify, the first course, it was still aimed at musicians and harpists specifically?
Cheryl: Yes, but it wasn’t about teaching. I made it clear I’m not teaching technique in this course.
Ari: Right. It’s about the general topic of this specific musical genre.
Cheryl: Yeah, it was terrific, too. I had two guest speakers. Oh, and can I just say another thing that was so great were the discussions. The group got really involved in the discussions, and it was so much fun. We had offshoots. Like, we got into a whole discussion about animal music because there are these medieval pieces about the birds singing this and that. And then we got all into animal music. So the capacity there in the course is to not just stay focused, like just on the topic, but be able to have these discussions that bring what you’re teaching into life for everybody. So that was a super fun part of that course.
Ari: Very cool. Abe, any additional questions?
Abe: Any lessons, Lauren, you want to share in terms of your experience teaching? It’s not just an informational topic, it’s tactile. It’s something that would normally be taught in person. So any lessons learned from teaching that online and things you can share with other people who want to do similar things online?
Cheryl: I would say one thing I’m in the process of learning more about. That’s a really great question. So there’s teaching one to one online, and then there’s teaching groups online. So the one-to-one teaching is clear, right? You either do it on Zoom or whatever. And that I’ve been doing, like I said, since I think, 2012. And like my students say, I have a spidey sense that even online I’m able to just go, your shoulder’s tight, you know, or your third finger or whatever it is. I can sense it even online. So some people can, some people can’t.
I’m highly kinesthetic, so I think I just tune in and I’m able to do it one to one. What I’m discovering is the one to many is a little trickier. When you’re actually teaching a technique, you have to keep balanced with the group and make sure everything you’re doing stays relevant to everyone that’s in the group, and it’s a bit more challenging. So that’s my frontier at the moment, is learning about teaching groups. So I had the one big hybrid course on a topic, then a hybrid course on technique, where I gave them all these basics and had all kinds of music and written descriptions and all kinds of stuff. The next layer now I’m going to, and I’m using Ruzuku, is the group lesson. And that won’t be a course. So I’m not going to be filling up lessons with all kinds of stuff.
It’s going to be group lessons, but we’re running it through Ruzuku. So the students can do their discussions and the ease of using the platform, which is fantastic. And you just do your zoom lessons and they’re right up there and students can see them. So I’m experimenting with that this semester. And then in January, I’m going to run the next sequel to the medieval modes course. So I’m learning about the challenges of teaching a group something that involves, like, actual technique.
Abe: What happens if someone gets stuck or they’re having trouble with the technique? How do you support them online given that you’re not there in the room to say, like, oh, you need to be doing this?
Cheryl: Oh, I’ve got all kinds of methods for that because that happens in one to one or in a group. Wow. That’s who I am as a teacher. I’m able to diagnose what’s going on with a student pretty well. Sometimes it takes me maybe two on really rare cases, three tries to know exactly what’s going on with the student and what they need, be it a physical block, a musical misunderstanding, something they’re missing. But I’m so clear on the technique myself, in my body and what it produces musically that I can say to a student more this, rotate your radius more or deeper, pad on the string or whatever. And then there are all kinds of basic musicianship sort of things that are just as easy to teach online as they are in person.
Abe: Great. Thank you.
Ari: All right, so, Cheryl, before we wrap up, where can our audience go to learn more about you, your programs, and your music?
Cheryl: You can go to cherylannfulton.com and you can join my email list. And I think in the notes for the show, if you sign up for my email list, you can get a special recording of a live concert with me playing the Bach Toccata and D minor. That’s like the famous one. You’re at Halloween. There’s a recording of me playing that live on the triple harp that you can get for signing up on my email list. And you can find my music anywhere on Spotify, Pandora, Apple, Amazon, YouTube, all of that.
Ari: Awesome. Thank you so, so much for being here and coming on the show.
Cheryl: Yeah, thank you.
Danny: Now stick around for my favorite part of the show, where Abe and Ari will pull out the best takeaways for you to apply to your course.
Abe: All right, Ari, time for the debrief. A very kind of, I guess you could say, distinctive and unusual kind of teaching in this example.
Ari: Yeah, absolutely. I think the thing that really stood out to me, and I dug a bit more into it with Cheryl on the call as well, is this kind of idea that we get from a lot of creatives where businesses, contrary to having an artistic life and how that’s not really how it works, and that if you want to create a real impact, do need to think about business, at least to a certain degree, if you want to be able to keep on doing it and not find yourself, you know, working in a job, not really doing the creative stuff that you want to be doing. And her refocus on, you know, business is about being able to offer her gift, I think is beautiful and just worth remembering for people who feel like it’s selling out or something like that to kind of get into the world of selling what they do and teaching and supporting others.
Abe: Yeah. I mean, it kind of ties into the idea of jobs to be done. Right. What are you doing that’s really of value to people, or what do they value at different levels? And obviously, being a live performer is valuable. Right. People do value the experience of going out and hearing music and being entertained, and they’re willing to pay for that. But interestingly, they want that job to be done for them relatively inexpensively, partly because there’s many options for entertainment out there, and also perhaps because entertainment is only one motivation, and it’s kind of a relatively lighter sort of motivation. And I think in these examples, what we found is Cheryl was able to tap into a different motivation, the desire to learn to be more creative, to be more fulfilled as an artist. It wasn’t for some financial or business reason, right?
People aren’t taking her class so that they can then become master harvest and go out and perform and make a lot of money by performing, because Cheryl already learned that you can’t do that in this niche. But they’re happy to pay for her course anyway because it’s scratching their creative itch. It’s making them feel more fulfilled as a person. So the problem that her course is solving, or the quote unquote pain point that’s addressing is maybe not obvious at first, right?
It might not have been obvious. That’s what people are really willing to pay for, is a sense of creative fulfillment or a sense of mastery. And so I do think that is an untapped opportunity for a lot of people, especially in more creative and artistic fields, if they’re feeling stuck on, oh, like people, they’re not willing to pay for my stuff or my cart or my creative output isn’t valued. Try to do that exploration of, okay, but what is it that the people who are interested in your stuff really do value?
Ari: And would be willing to pay for absolutely. The other lesson that jumped out to me is just her story of how she built a course years ago, sold 97 copies of it, made ten, $11,000, I believe she said, which is great. I mean, that’s nothing. But the amount of effort that she put into it was on par with the amount of effort that goes into one of these live performances. All the practice, all of that for yes, she made money on it, but on an hourly basis, really not that much.
And then just that learning kind of more recently where instead of deciding this is the course I want to build and putting all her effort into it, she went way more kind of low effort in order to put it out there, see what people are interested in, deliver that, and let her students essentially guide her into what is the next thing that they want her to build and what’s the next thing that they want her to build that they are happily paying for with a lot less effort on her part, which I think is really great and worth remembering to go with what people are looking for and not what you decide is the right thing, even if it is something that they want. Do it minimum viable, get some results first and then kind of put in all that effort when relevant.
Abe: And remember, it doesn’t have to be the same model or the same delivery for every person. Some people, they really want that one-on-one harp instruction. They’re willing to pay for it, but some people, they can’t afford that. Or they actually just want to be part of a group experience, even if they can’t afford it. And so having the right portfolio of courses and offers is very powerful.
Ari: Yep.
Abe: Cheryl Ann Fulton, a world class harpist and pioneering expert in historical harps. Her latest courses are Meet the Medieval Modes and Tune Up Your Tone. You can find out more about her and her courses at cherylannfulton.com. That’s cherylannfulton.com dot. You’ll find the links to her website and lead magnet for her email list in the show notes, and you can listen to her music on Spotify or wherever you’d like to get your music.
Thanks for tuning into Course Lab. I’m Abe Crystal, co-founder at CEO for Ruzuku, joined by my co-host Ari. Course Lab is part of the Mirasee FM podcast network, featuring other great shows like To Lead is Human and Just Between Coaches. If you’re enjoying the show, follow us on YouTube or wherever you get your favorite podcasts. And please do leave us a comment or a start review. It really helps. Thanks and we’ll see you next time.
All right, Ari, who do we have coming onto the show next week?
Ari: Next time we will be bringing back Michael Sheridan. He’s a dream expert, radio talk show host, and the creator of the Aisling school of dream interpretation. We had a really fascinating conversation about scaling, which is great.
Abe: Yeah, always interesting when we can bring someone back for a second follow up interview.