Course Lab – Episode 93
From Court to Courses (Kathryn Goldman)
Abe Crystal: If she just tried kind of her initial course idea and it wasn’t really doing much and given up then, it never would have made it into this successful model. So just a good reminder of the importance of continuous improvement over a period of time is what’s necessary to make a education based model work for most people.
Ari Iny: Hello and welcome to Course Lab. I’m Ari Iny, the director of growth at Mirasee, and I’m not in the studio with my co-host Crystal, the co-founder of Ruzuku, because he is on sabbatical. But he’s going to record the debrief with me when he gets back. Today, we welcome Kathryn Goldman to the show. Kathryn is an intellectual property and Internet law attorney at Goldman and Minton. She also helps creative professionals protect their work through the creative Law center. Thanks for joining us today, Kathryn.
Kathryn Goldman: Thank you for having me. I’m happy to be here with you.
Ari: So the way that I like to kick this off is by asking our guests kind of, could you give me a 30,000-foot view of yourself and how you came to be doing what you’re doing and to the world of online courses?
Kathryn: Sure. So I’m an attorney, as you mentioned in my intro, and I spent the first 25 years of my career in litigation. Intellectual property, copyright, trademark contract, that kind of thing, business disputes. And there came a time when I was ready to move out of litigation because it’s not a happy place to be for attorneys or for the clients. And so I was looking for what to do, and I knew I liked to write, I liked to speak, and I started a blog, and I moved from there to building a course. And I have just progressed right along from a blog to an online course to a membership program. I still run the blog. I run the membership program. I do monthly workshops, and I have started doing a lot of speaking engagements as well, in addition to representing my clients, but not in court.
Ari: Got it. And so tell us a bit more about how your courses and the membership fit into your overall business.
Kathryn: So the course I started with at the very beginning was called Content Protection for Creative Professionals. And I started with the live course, the prototype, and then I moved it off to a prerecorded course. And what I learned was, given my practice, I don’t represent people who have the same problems over and over and over again. All of my clients have unique stories and unique issues. And so a prepackaged course didn’t necessarily serve my audience well, which is why moving to the membership model really allowed me to adapt what I was offering to the needs of the members.
The course that I created, back in the day, I think it was 2015, has been refined and has become the basic knowledge base or resource in the membership. So everybody who’s in the membership has access to that knowledge base. And then from there, I offer monthly workshops, the topics for which are suggested by the members. So it’s geared towards what they’re doing and what they’re thinking about and what they need to know. And what has happened is that all just drives business to me as a legal services provider, so it all kind of works together.
Ari: Very cool. And so tell me a little bit more about the process that brought you to like, okay, this course is great, but it’s not actually serving the people. And so here’s what I’m going to do instead. So what were the considerations? What were you seeing from your clients that prompted that shift?
Kathryn: So what I was seeing was I needed my clients to have basic information about copyright, trademark and content protection because they’re all creatives, right? They’re all building their own businesses, they’re all producing their own work, and they needed to protect it. I work with a lot of course creators, and I help them protect their course content. I work with a lot of writers and artists and photographers, and so everybody has kind of a different product. They put it together in a different way. They’re offering it to the world in a different way.
So the original course that I developed addressed some baseline knowledge to educate my clients. So I wasn’t spending time educating them on the basics. I could get right to whatever their particular issue was. And so that’s why the course made a nice foundation for the membership. And then when folks join the membership, they get these monthly workshops, but they also accrue time with me one on one. So the longer they’re in the membership, the more time they accrue. Then book with me with one-on-one consultations or contract review or whatever it is they need.
It’s like a Christmas club almost for them to accrue attorney time. And so that way I’ve been able to deliver affordable, accessible legal services and customize them at the same time. It really gave me a flexible structure.
Ari: That’s really interesting. And I would guess that the moment they leave the membership, any time that they’ve accrued goes away. So it also helps people stay in the membership.
Kathryn: That is correct. The time is available to you for as long as you’re in the membership. Yeah. Now, I will say that the workshops are also available to non-members, and they can just buy it for that month if they want to do that. So people who don’t see the need for kind of an ongoing retainer relationship with an attorney, but there’s a workshop that they’re interested in, they can just dip in and take that workshop.
Ari: Got it. You mentioned that the membership has become a source of clients for you. Was that the thinking behind it from day one? Was it a happy accident that you’re now like, okay, I really want to continue this because it creates this pipeline for me. What was your process there?
Kathryn: Well, it was always planned because the membership fees accrue to attorney time. They’re always going to be clients. Right?
Ari: Right.
Kathryn: So what has happened is the members have evolved to become my priority clients. Right? They’re the ones who, they get first dibs on my schedule. They’re the ones I will respond to the quickest. They’re the people I know the best because we have a relationship over time and I see them every month. So it was always intended that the members would also be clients who would request legal services. But it’s become a nice community. The relationships I have with the members are just lovely. I mean, they’re the kind of people I want to work with. They’re creatives, they’re building something. I’ve been able to transition my legal practice to something that just makes it pleasant to go to work every day.
Ari: That’s awesome. So one quick kind of logistical question. How much are you charging for the membership now?
Kathryn: So in order to join, it’s $197 for the first three months and then after that it’s $67 a month and you can cancel anytime. And it’s the $67 monthly fee that accrues towards legal services. That’s the price that we set when we started and it has not gone up.
Ari: That’s amazing. And that is very affordable. That’s great.
Kathryn: That was the idea. I’ve been doing this for three years now. It’s, well, three plus now. So every workshop which comes with downloadable resources, contract templates, everything goes into the members library. So when a new member comes in and let’s say I did publishing contract workshop last year with a form contract, they can jump in and snag that publishing contract even though it was done last year. So the library just builds and builds and builds.
Ari: You mentioned that people can just buy workshops without being part of the membership. How much are you charging for those?
Kathryn: I charge $97 for a workshop.
Ari: Okay. So it is very, very much obvious that it’s more cost effective for people to just be a part of the membership.
Kathryn: Yeah,I tell them, you know, if you’re going to take two workshops, just join the membership. Right? And I do think it’s an accessible price. I think it’s affordable, and I think it makes a lot of sense.
Ari: Absolutely. And so of the people who you have coming to the workshops, it sounds like the majority would be members. They’re not these one offs.
Kathryn: Yeah, that’s correct. That’s exactly right. Most of the people who attend the workshops are members. And the members, like I said, they drive the topics. And however, the people who come in the one offs are very active in the discussion. It’s an informal workshop. I do a presentation. I go through the subject matter, and then it’s Q and A. It’s like 35, 40 minutes of presentation, and then it’s 20 minutes of Q and A, or however long until we’re done with the questions. And so when folks are choosing to take just a workshop, man, they have some serious questions, and they’re very active and engaged in the Q and A.
Ari: Very cool. It sounds like, again, an amazing deal. And so I’m assuming most people stick around.
Kathryn: Yes. I have low attrition, a low churn rate, I guess. Now, that’s not to say that a couple people have joined for the three months gone in, scooped up all of the contracts and the templates and have left, and that’s fine. And I will tell you that, you know, some of them have come back and said, can you help me with this issue? At which point, you know, they’re just paying an hourly fee.
Ari: Which I’m assuming, if I’m understanding correctly, so are the people who are accruing time the moment they go beyond the accrued time?
Kathryn: That’s correct. And for a number of the members who are building businesses, they’ve got trademark work that needs to be done. There’s contract work that needs to be done. So there are some serious legal projects that need to be taken care of for them so they can build their business. And that’s not a $67 project.
Ari: Right. That’s really interesting. And I really like this model for service-based businesses to keep people in the fold, participating, kind of involved learning. And it seems like part of this is also they’re learning what they don’t know and what they actually need professional help to do that. You know, here are all these things that I wasn’t aware were an issue that might come my way, but now I do know, and I’m not a lawyer. I can’t deal with it. Hey, Kathryn, help.
Kathryn: Right, exactly.And, you know, for many of those things, the workshop, for instance, we did a workshop on privacy policies for websites and Terms of Use. Well, there’s a template in the membership area in the library, along with the video workshop of how you can make this fit your website. Right? And you don’t really need a lawyer to do a privacy policy in a term of use for a website. So here it is. Right? Go ahead. Now, if you have a question about a certain piece of it, you have access to me. Shoot me an email and we’ll get that question answered. Also, each workshop has its own separate Q and A, so those questions can be shared with other members.
Ari: Very cool. And so if someone who is running a service-based business is looking to add courses, looking to kind of utilize courses in a similar fashion, courses or membership, what were the things that you learned along the way that you wish you knew when you started?
Kathryn: That’s interesting. I keep learning new things every day. Being part of a group of entrepreneurs, you learn a lot of things, like what’s the best method of doing online invoicing, what will work best for online calendaring and getting paid for your hour, those kinds of things. What are the tips that you can get from other entrepreneurs who are doing these things? I will say, for breaking into the online world, you need help with your tech. I have a VA that helps me with setting up all the workshop spaces and doing the replays. You should have a bookkeeper and an accountant. You should not be doing those things yourself. And then just be a member of a group that is doing similar things so that you’re constantly thinking and growing.
Ari: Awesome. Okay. Anything else that you would like to share that you think would be useful to the course creators listening?
Kathryn: Stick with it. Just be persistent. It takes time to build these things and to gain traction. And, you know, in the first year, I just felt like I was knocking my head against the wall and I wasn’t getting the traction and I wasn’t getting the response that I want. Now, I’m three years in. I’ve got this great library of resources. I’m getting booked for speaking engagements, which was like a nice little bonus. And I’ve had more than 260 people come through the creative law center as members or workshop attendees. Just stick with it. Build your community and make sure you enjoy what you’re doing. If you don’t like it, find something else, right?
Ari: Right. I mean, it’s going to be very hard to stick with it if you’re not enjoying it and you’re not getting traction.
Kathryn: Right. I mean, one of the big reasons that I made the change from litigation to transactional work is because I wanted to work with a certain kind of client. I wanted to work with creatives. I wanted to work with creatives who were also entrepreneurs. And it takes a while to turn your career. You have to just kind of just keep marching, keep doing it until you get to a place where you’re really happy with what’s going on. And that’s where I am right now.
Ari: Very cool. And so one last question, kind of based on something that you were mentioning just now, and this is something that we’ve heard from other guests as well, kind of the power of a community. What do you do, and what have you found most effective to nurture the community? Because I’m sure that a lot of people stay because of the community, in addition to the great value that you provide, but it’s also a place that they like to be kind of part of your membership.
Kathryn: So my biggest touch points are the monthly workshops. Right? And there’s some socialization before and after in terms of cross pollination with the community, with community members cross pollinating, that’s been a challenge for me. And so what I try to do is when someone is having an issue or a problem or trying to figure something out, I refer them to the members of the community who can help them. So, you know, I try to facilitate that, but other than that, it’s really more one on one with me.
Ari: Okay, awesome. So, Kathryn, where can our audience go to learn more about you and the creative law center?
Kathryn: Well, you can visit me at thecreativelawcenter.com or you can write me at Kathryn, which is K-A-T-H-R-Y-N @ creativelawcenter dot com.
Ari: Thank you so, so much, Kathryn. This has been an awesome conversation. I know a lot of people are getting a lot of value out of it.
Kathryn: Oh, good. I hope so.
Danny: Now stick around for my favorite part of the show, where Abe and Ari will pull out the best takeaways for you to apply to your course.
Abe: So, Ari.There was a lot to hear. What stood out to you in Kathryn’s story?
Ari: Well, there was a lot that really did jump out to me. I found it very, very interesting how she was using her membership essentially as a way to keep people engaged, but really as a pipeline to the rest of her services. And I find novel way of allowing people to accrue time with her, which is really interesting as a way to, like, okay, it makes sense for me to use you as a lawyer because I already have this time with you, and so kind of it kicks things off for people.
Abe: Yeah, it’s very interesting and conventionally be applied to other service models. The larger lesson I took from that is the kind of framework of integrating professional services with your other offerings. So in the even bigger picture of that is to avoid getting fixated on, oh, I need to just build a course. And that’s an idea we’ve talked about in several different contexts. But I think what her situation illustrates is that services are really the core of a lot of businesses that you might think of as education businesses.
There definitely are people who can make a living just offering courses or just offering a membership, and we’ve interviewed some of them and given you takeaways, but they’re kind of in the minority. A lot of people that really have a thriving, healthy business in this space that they’re excited about, it’s because the services core and then courses, memberships, other offerings are complementing that and bringing people into that. So this, I think, was a really good reminder of how core services are to our work.
Ari: Something else that jumped out to me is also just the way that Kathryn listened to what people needed in a way to further integrate how the course will work with her services, in that she turned her course into a membership. She listened to the people coming to her and kind of what they actually needed, and quickly found out that the course isn’t the right format. And it all leads to this piece around supplying the services and having the services at the core of her business. What will support that best? Not a course, but a membership.
Abe: Yeah, it all comes back to basics. Listen to your customers. Like, keep digging into your customers problems. Don’t try to assume that every problem is a nail because you happen to have a hammer. The other thing that was interesting here is that the long-term perspective, she talked about the importance of sticking with it. She talked about how it really took like two to three years to kind of develop and to ramp up this membership and services model.
So from the first glimmer of an idea of like, oh, I should have a course, right? And then moving into testing that idea and then trying to get more people into that and then evolving it into a membership and then having this service system, that took time, and it took time then to grow. Once the model was working, if she just tried her initial course idea and it wasn’t really doing much and given up, then it never would have made it into this successful model. So just a good reminder of the importance of continuous improvement over a period of time is what’s necessary to make a education based model work for most people.
Ari: Absolutely. I 100% agree. I did appreciate her reminder to our listeners that it is worthwhile to be a member of other groups. So, you know, do find your own community in addition to building out your own course and serving your clients. But there is also a value in being part of other communities. It’s not something that we often talk about on this podcast because we’re very focused on the course aspect of things. But entrepreneurship can be a lonely journey, and so I just appreciated her reminder that it would be useful for you to find your own community that you can be a part of, that you can learn from and kind of actively participate in.
Abe: Kathryn Goldman is an intellectual property and Internet law attorney who helps creative professionals and entrepreneurs protect their work. You can learn more about her at creativelawcenter.com. That’s creativelawcenter.com.
Thank you for listening to Course Lab. I’m Abe Crystal, co-founder and CEO of Ruzuku, here with my co-host Ari Iny. Course Lab is part of the Mirasee’s FM podcast network, which also includes such shows as Once Upon a Business and Making It. This episode, of Course Lab, was produced by Cynthia Lamb. Post production was by Marvin del Rosario. Danny Iny is our executive producer. If you don’t want to miss the excellent episodes coming up on Course Lab, follow us on YouTube or wherever you listen to your favorite podcasts. And if you’re enjoying our show, please go ahead and leave us a starred review. It really does make a difference. Thank you, and we’ll see you next time.
All right, Ari, who have we got coming for the next episode?
Ari: It’s really exciting, actually. We have Dorie Clark coming up. So Dorie is a Wall Street Journal bestselling author, among many, many other accomplishments.
Abe: Should be really interesting to talk to her.
Ari: Absolutely.