Course Lab – Episode 118
Clarity Came From One Module (Dr. Irena Kyd)
Abe Crystal: It’s a process. You’re not going to make a connection or get a lead and then they’re going to sign up for your $5,000 coaching package tomorrow. Right? Like, sure, that’ll happen once in a blue moon, but more likely, people need to hear from you for a while, like build some sense of connection and trust and then that sale can happen.
Ari Iny: Hello and welcome to Course Lab, the show that teaches creators like you how to make better online course. I’m Ari Iny, the director of growth at Mirasee and I’m here with my co host Abe Crystal, the co founder of Ruzuku.
Abe: Hey there, Ari.
Ari: In each episode of Course Lab, we showcase a course and creator who’s doing something really interesting, either with the architecture of their course, the business model behind it, or both. Today we welcome Dr. Irena Kyd to the show. She’s a retired OB GYN now hired as a mental performance and relationship success coach. She’s also coaching people to break through mindset barriers with her proprietary neuro youth technique. Having counseled thousands of women about their most intimate issues, she helps them turn their marriage around to enjoy a passionate and loving relationship and be happy again every day. Welcome, Irena.
Irena Kyd: Thank you so much for having me. It’s such an honor.
Ari: So the question that I always kick these interviews off with is could you give us a 30,000 foot view of yourself and how you came to the world of online courses?
Irena: Well, looking back at my life, I can say I was pretty much coaching people my whole adult life. I was born and raised in Zurich, Switzerland. You may detect the accent. And I was working as an gynecologist, obstetrician at the University Hospital of Zurich for like 10 years. During that time, I worked with thousands of women and they were very diverse. Not only old and young, pregnant or those who had issues getting pregnant, but women with everyday problems, up to fatal diseases and also women of very different ethnicities and languages. There was even a patient who was deaf mute.
So it seemed that it was easy for me to connect with anybody. And when we moved to the United States because my husband was transferred and that’s when my fifth child was born, I became a stay at home mom because I didn’t want to have someone else raise my children while I went back to basically not medical school, but this whole internship stuff. So what was I doing with myself? I was enrolling in martial arts, became a black belt within two and a half years and then started teaching karate. I trained men, women and children. It seemed to come easy to me getting involved in karate and the eastern philosophies led me to energy healing. And I became a Reiki master successfully worked as such as well.
Because everybody said I have a knack of explaining complex matters so they can get be easily understood. And everybody was coming to me for advice. I was drawn into coaching, but you know, science geek that I am, I wanted to learn it really from the ground up. And I put a lot of effort into learn what to do as a coach. And I was able to draw from my own pretty extensive life experience. And for me, it all came back to how do you relate to people? Right? How did I relate to the patients? How did I relate to people in my karate dojo? It’s all about relationships. Because how do you build trust if not with compassion and understanding?
Relationships for me are the foundation of humanity and I need to build a relationship to serve my clients. And the same applies to coaching. You need to build a relationship that will have to be based on your own relationship with yourself and also having a successful marriage. I found that this is really my calling. I wish that people could say I want what she has. I wish everybody could have what I have. And I think the world would be a better place. I mean, it sounds cheesy, but I think that’s really true.
Ari: Awesome. So tell us a little bit more about how you help people. What is the process you take them through? What is the way that you deliver it?
Irena: Well, right now, the courses I created, I have positive proof that people enjoyed it and liked it a lot. I have started to narrow it down and I think this is one of the core things I learned over the years and very much so at Mirasee as well. What I like to do and my best work is done because we’re talking about very intimate issues is one on one. But the way to get an overview of what I work and how I work with, it’s easier for them to ease them into how it is working with me. This is why I created those courses like Future Visioning and the Conflict Cure. Actually started out with another one, what’s called Life in Love.
Ari: Is that a prerequisite for people to work with you one on one for them to have gone through one of your courses?
Irena: No, absolutely not. I am still in the process of building that trust engine and audience engine. I learned the hard way that lead generation should never stop. People don’t have to go through all of that. I just give them a chance to meet with me beforehand and then you’ll see. Do you want to know how there is a shortcut to get, you know, either save your marriage or improve yours vastly because I’ve gone through all the lows and now the highs and it took me a lot longer than needed because I didn’t have a guide.
Ari: I’m just trying to clarify the journey that you have people go through. If they come to you, they’re interested in a course or working with you, so you meet with them first. And based on that meeting, you suggest what is their best next step?
Irena: Correct. I mean, the way I meet them first is maybe they consume a lead magnet about what to do when you’re really stressed out in a marriage or in conflict. And then they are also allowed to watch a presentation I did about conflict resolution. And then I invite them to have a one on one quick chat with me to see how I can best serve them.
Ari: That’s great.
Irena: And also maybe I’ll tell them if you don’t want to have the big investment of the one on one coaching with me, maybe you want to come to my course when I’m having the conflict cure course again. And just to say, I kind of moved away from future visioning. And I want to reiterate to all course creators, be a hundred percent sure who your ideal client is. That goes both ways. Who is the person you conserve the most with what you’re doing? Because if you look at future visioning versus the conflict cure, you can see that these offer different audiences. Of course, everybody can profit from having better relationships, but future visioning is maybe more for the woo woo people. And I had somebody tell me once, I’m 75% science and 25% woo, so maybe not as aligned with me as the Conflict Cure.
Ari: So that’s actually a really interesting point. I’m curious to your journey, having this course, Future Visioning, and essentially, I mean, I’m guessing at this point you don’t deliver it anymore. You’ve retired it, you’ve made a shift and made it clear that this is not something that you want to be doing. So I’m curious as to the process that you went through to get to that point.
Irena: I love that question because I had to learn it myself. I did have proof of concept. People raved about it. But it was very interesting that the thing they appreciated the most about that whole course was one particular module where they said this particular module was worth more than the whole investment. If that particular module, which was actually a strategy or a strategic way to get to your vision, was worth more than the whole rest, it made sense for me to say, let’s retire the whole rest and just focus on that strategy, which involved getting to better relationships.
Ari: Interesting. So was the process more of a this isn’t the best audience for you? It’s not that you’re against serving them, but more, this is not exactly the person that you’re trying to attract and want to be putting yourself out there to attract. So was it that or was it more of a I see that of all this content that I’m delivering, there’s only one element that people really, really want and need. So let me ditch the rest, focus on this, and build something specific out of this that ties into the rest of the stuff I want to do.
Irena: It was both. Nebie coaches. They say, I could really serve everybody. I can help everybody get better relationships. 50% of marriages end in divorce. So I could definitely help a lot of people. But it’s not only who I would like to work with. The woo woo people who are destitute. No, to be honest. But it’s also, can I really help them? Would I be the best coach for them? And the answer was clearly no. They need something else. Maybe they need somebody who does all that kind of work with them. So it was on both sides. I don’t think I was aligned to these people, but I was not the best coach for them. And now pulling out that one module and still figuring out who that would serve the most. It’s a journey because everybody evolves.
Ari: Abe, anything you want to ask about this topic? I have more questions on a different direction. Irena mentioned earlier about lead generation doesn’t stop. So I wanted to dig into that and kind of her experience there.
Abe: Okay, well, I guess before focusing more on lead generation, what’s also maybe helpful for other coaches or course creators to hear is what have you learned about changing people’s beliefs or behaviors through online programs? It’s straightforward to present information, but that information doesn’t necessarily lead to a change in mindset or a change in behavior. Just curious, what have you learned about that and do you have kind of tips or advice for other course creators as to how to approach that challenge?
Irena: Yes, I learned a lot because I’ve been at this for a while and, you know, taking the courses, launch your course, sell more courses. All of these are really helpful because it comes from people who have tested the waters. I went deep into research into trauma and the attachment theory, beliefs and neuroscience, and everything that I noticed gave me that shortcut. But with this comes the curse of knowledge, meaning I probably know way more than other people about this. They are at their spot and this is where they need to be held and supported. For the course creation, you have to be really crystal clear who your ideal client persona is and where they are. What is their most urgent problem that you are able to help them solve?
Give them bite sized pieces so they can implement, otherwise there will be no transformation. Information is cheap to come by, you can get it anywhere. But if you want to create a course that really helps people, you have to give them the ability to implement and transform. And I noticed with that module, because it was just short, it was one module out of the course, it could have been more valuable and also more effective if I had cut it down into bite sized pieces and delivered it over a longer period of time and give people time to implement.
Abe: And then anything in particular you found effective in terms of fostering mindset shifts through online interactions?
Irena: I noticed that fostering mindset is not that easy because people have their beliefs and they come from even ancestral DNA. It’s imprinted over a lifetime, these beliefs just to open up for them a perspective that it can be different is the first step. In the online courses, I noticed the best way is demonstrations. The best way to show people what mindset shifts can do is take a volunteer through the exercises that I can use. And I have a lot of techniques at my disposal.
Abe: Cool. Thank you. So yeah, we can shift gears to the lead generation stuff.
Ari: All right. Awesome. Something that you mentioned earlier is that lead generation doesn’t stop, which makes me think that probably at some point you did stop lead generation and kind of you learned that lesson the hard way. I’d love to hear a bit more about what was your experience, what did you learn and what you would recommend to other course creators to make sure that they are continuing to support their business.
Irena: I believe I dropped the ball on lead generation because there’s something else that have priority or whatever. And I figured, you know, I have my email list. It’s not a big list, but it’s a list. People have busy lives and they simply forget about you. So I think the most important thing is always nurture them through valuable content and be on the ball with them at least weekly. So they remember you and they’re reminded that actually you can offer them value. And maybe they’re not ready to buy now, but they may be ready to buy half a year later because you’ve given them reason to trust you and to get to know you better. And then maybe they’re willing to get on a call because now people are getting skeptical they hear from a thousand places, hop on a call, I can help you with everything. I can get you rich overnight.
And they’re just not there. So you have to really, I think, be compassionate but also supportive of your audience in that way and maybe go above and beyond what other people do and really nurture them from the heart of saying, I’m here to help you if you want help, this is what I do, this is what I could do. It’s up to you now, but remind them all the time because otherwise they’ll forget, rightfully so.
Ari: Absolutely, the importance of nurture and keeping them engaged and keeping you top of mind for them. And then there’s the element of getting them on your list and not letting your list stagnate because even if you’re nurturing them, people slowly fall off. So what have you seen work well for you that you would recommend you’ve seen also work for others potentially. And what are your thoughts around list growth.
Irena: The lead generation, like the top of funnel things that I found are very effective or maybe three different things. I put out a quiz that was very effective, but it’s a lot of work, so maybe not something you should start with. People are always interested about themselves and you know, trying to find out what am I what or not. But they may not be the most targeted. And then another one that’s much easier is something like a quick and dirty thing, like I’m putting out a stress reliever for people who are at home, like seething about their better half and that works well.
And the other one that also worked well was doing meditations. But it really depends who you’re talking to. These were great. The meditations and immersion was great for people, for the more woohoo people because really I believe I have a fantastic lead magnet for that. But that’s exactly the people I attracted that I then found are not the ones I can serve best to my best abilities.
Ari: Awesome. And where are you finding people? So you said putting out a quiz, different handouts, trainings, meditations, and as you said, those were not quite right for who you wanted. Where are you showing up so that people are seeing these things?
Irena: That’s still something I’m working on, honestly. And I have tried a lot of different things. I’ve done giveaways, participated in summits, done interviews just like this one on a podcast. And I’ve also participated in Facebook groups. I have my own Facebook group for a while. Was not really satisfying to do that because it was a lot of work and not much gain. And now finding these people is really the crux of the thing which I’m still working at. And that’s why I’m an MBA. That’s why I need the help of the people who’ve gone before me. I don’t need to reinvent the wheel.
Ari: Absolutely. That makes total sense. Awesome.
Abe: I mean, maybe you can speak more to the nurture process. I think something people struggle with is they don’t really know what to do. What was most effective for you in terms of not just sending out content, but getting a response or having a sense that you were creating some sort of engagement that was leading to clients in the future?
Irena: I noticed sending out contact is one thing and usually never gets a response. But most engagement came when I shared something from my personal life. So a personal story that I could relate back to them and ask, did this ever happen to you? The other part was something connected to current events. Just like the Palisades fires, the fires in Los Angeles where my daughter lives, and she actually had to evacuate. I put on Facebook and I got, I don’t know, 50 or more responses right there. I also put it out on my list and I got responses from there because people had experienced catastrophes like that. And for me, I was so afraid for my daughter who had to evacuate because she was literally one block south of Sunset Boulevard. And you see this picture of everything burning.
It is scary. If you share something from yourself that they can relate to, that, for me, gets the most engagement.
Ari: Awesome. That’s very helpful. And I hope your daughter is safe.
Irena: She actually returned yesterday.
Ari: Okay, excellent. I’m glad to hear it.
Irena: Thanks for asking.
Ari: So the next thing I’d like to ask you about is that initial call that you do with people. I really like the idea of having a call to validate where people are at and enroll them in the right thing. So I’m just curious, when did you start doing them? What stage of business? What did you already have in place before you decided to start doing those kinds of calls? What have you learned from that that you think would be helpful for others?
Irena: I started doing these calls when I had absolutely nothing in place other than saying, I can help you one on one. So it really depends on who you’re talking to. If you have people you know really well and you know you can help them, like the warm audience, it’s much easier to ask them, what do you think? Should we talk about this? I can really help you with that. I have done this for a long time and worked pro bono a lot. Because I was involved with an organization that helped PTSD victims. They were very diverse as well. I mean, I’m talking nuns in the Vatican, from the Congo to retired Navy seal. So with these people, it was easier because they were like almost funneled to me and say, hey, look, this is a great coach that you could work with. It’s free. And so that’s what I did.
But if you want to make money from it, again, learn from somebody who’s done it. Follow the steps they have. It’s always the same thing. It’s just like as a doctor, you know, they come into the call and it’s like, let’s talk about what ails you, make a diagnosis, dig deep, and then prescribe the treatment. It’s the same framework.
Ari: Awesome. And so that’s what you’re using now? Same. It’s just now you have more things to prescribe, essentially?
Irena: Yes, that’s exactly it. I have more things to prescribe if I know they’re not ready to go into the one on one. Which I now came to the conclusion I can’t only charge like a hundred dollars for or do it pro bono all the time. I can offer them a course or a resource and say, maybe at this time that’s best for you. At least this one gets you in the right direction, gets you going.
Abe: I guess the challenge I see is that like, if you think about the analogy of a doctor, people are conditioned to go seek out a doctor. They’re going into that, like, trusting the doctor’s authority and not necessarily with like skepticism or resistance. Like some people are open minded, but a lot of people are going to be a lot harder to get them open to a call with someone who is positioning themselves as, you know, a coach, a consultant, a online course creator, whatever. Right? Like, it doesn’t have the authority that traditional medicine does and it activates more skepticism. Curious if you have thoughts on that.
Irena: Absolutely correct. We’re talking like almost two different things. How do I get people on the call is different than when they’re on the call. When they’re on the call. I had never, ever an issue with them opening up. I have many people say to me, I’ve never told that to anybody before. So this is not the problem I have. I think this is in my genes. I might have that helper gene and that’s why I became a doctor. It’s much harder now. Of course they’re skeptical. You’re conditioned to go to the doctor because you don’t know anything about what happens to you. But they are supposed to know.
And sometimes people are actually too blue eyed going to doctors. I have heard so many horror stories about people being not completely treated wrongly, but not done the groundwork of diagnosing them properly. And that is the hardest part is like, how do you convey that you could actually help them and get to that trust?
Ari: So I actually, I want to dig into this a little bit more. I mean, this is something that you also mentioned earlier, that people are skeptical. People don’t tend to jump on calls. And that’s why you’ve mentioned the importance of nurture and all that. And you are getting people on calls currently, possibly not at the rate that you’d like just yet, but you are getting people on calls.
Irena: That’s right.
Ari: So what is the offer that you make them to get them on calls after nurture and so on?
Irena: It’s not really an offer. It’s the offer of talking to somebody who understands and gets you. Because I’ve been in your shoes, I know what you’re going through. I’ve come out the other way and I can show you a way forward. This is what resonates. Like I said, it’s my personal story that resonates most with these people. And because now I’m talking about relationship issues, I’m very openly telling them what happened in my marriage when it was shit, pardon my French. I’m very open about what happened in my marriage when he was crumbling.
It took years to get out of this. And I have shortcuts now because I’ve learned so much and trained in so many things that I’ve opened myself up. I can tell people about this. And I think that’s what resonates most when people think, yes, she gets me. Let me see what she can tell me. Maybe she does have a way out. Maybe she can help me.
Ari: Thank you, that’s really helpful. All right, Abe, any other questions that.
Abe: You have, any other closing thoughts or things that you’d like to share with other course creators that could be helpful?
Irena: Yes, I already said it before, but I want to reiterate. You have to be crystal clear who your audience is and it’s really about them. How can you serve them best? Even if you know the coolest stuff on the planet, they may not need that. What is it that they want and what’s their most urgent problems? Keep it simple. Don’t overwhelm people. We don’t need more information. They need a guide who can help them to the transformation. The third is don’t reinvent the wheel. Invest into yourself and learn from the masses that came before you and dive deep to make it your own.
Ari: And then last question is, if people want to learn more about you and what you do, where should they go?
Irena: Well, marriedlovesuccess.com, I’m also working on a new one. It’s called relationshipsuccesscoaching.com, which wasn’t available before. And yes, that’s probably the best way to get into contact with me.
Ari: Excellent. And both of those links will be in the show notes. Irena, thank you so much for taking the time to be here with us and having this conversation.
Irena: Thank you so much for inviting me.
Ari: Absolutely.
Abe: Yeah, thank you.
Danny Iny: Now stick around for my favorite part of the show, where Abe and Ari will pull out the best takeaways for you to apply to your course.
Abe: All right, Ari, it’s time for the debrief. Very interesting perspective from Dr. Irena, both her personal journey, but also how she has found success with her offerings.
Ari: Yeah, it looks like she learned a lot from through her journey, and it’s good that she’s willing to share. Something that stood out to me and something that we’ve heard before and she really reiterated is that idea of getting really crystal clear on who you want to serve, what they actually need, and then, you know, keeping it simple, to the extent that even if you’ve developed something that you later learned isn’t actually for who you really want to serve, it’s okay to let that go.
Abe: It’s one of those evergreen pieces of advice that we should never stop repeating in different forms with different examples, because it also falls in the category of yes, it’s simple, but it’s not easy. A lot of people really struggle to do it. She also illustrated that there’s still a lot of opportunity in bringing your personal voice and point of view to your courses and to your marketing. Again, I think that’s something that people have probably heard but are not necessarily doing. I sign up for a lot of people’s email lists just to see what’s going on, what are the trends, and when I look at a lot of the emails I get, they’re typically not really doing that right. They’re not really sharing interesting personal stories, reflections, things that are unique to that particular creator or teacher. They’re often much more generic. And so I think there is still a lot of opportunity to connect with your clients and with your audience in a much more personal way.
Ari: I 100% agree. The old adage of people connect with people is really important to remember, especially in this age of AI. And often that personality gets lost when you lean too heavily on AI. And so just that reminder of the end of the day, the goal of your marketing is to connect with people and for people to connect with you. And so even if you’re using different tools to speed that up, your personality, who you are and why they should care about connecting with you and all that, that needs to be coming through.
Abe: Yeah. I mean, it’s really the last place you should be using AI. That’s arguably counterproductive other than checking your grammar or something. And it doesn’t have to be that hard. Just think of it as you’re sharing what you’ve learned or sharing stories. And then just for emphasis, it’s a process. You’re not going to make a connection or get a lead. And then they’re going to sign up for your $5,000 coaching package tomorrow. Right. Like, sure, that’ll happen once in a blue moon, but more likely, people need to hear from you for a while, like build some sense of connection and trust and then that sale can happen. So putting a process in place where you are connecting with people consistently is really foundational. I think we sometimes forget to talk about that, too.
Ari: Yeah, 100%.
Abe: Anything else from your notebook?
Ari. Nope. That’s it. That’s it for me.
Abe: Dr. Irena Kyd is a mental performance and relationship success coach. She’s helped women turn their marriage around and also coached people to break through mindset barriers and their limiting beliefs. You can find out more about her at MarriedLov Success.com. That’s marriedlovesuccess.com. Tank you for listening to Course Lab. I’m Abe Crystal, co founder and CEO of Ruzuku, here with my co host Ari Iny. Course Lab is part of the Mirasee FM Podcast network, which also includes such shows as Neuroscience of Coaching and To Lead is Human. If you want to hear more from Course Lab, you can follow us on YouTube or wherever you listen to your favorite podcasts. And of course, if you enjoy the show, we always appreciate a star review. It really does make a difference. Thank you and we’ll see you next time.
All right, Ari, who do we have coming on to the show next time?
Ari: Next time we have Barbara Daoust. She is a success mindset strategist and business growth accelerator. Her course is called the Code to Success and I’m really excited to hear what that entails and how she helps people.
Abe: All right, we’re going deep into mindset. That’s going to be the theme of this season.
Ari: Looks like it.